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From Stefano Mazzocchi <stef...@apache.org>
Subject Re: [SUMMARY] Viva la Multiplexer! (was: [Contribution] Pipe-aware selection)
Date Fri, 05 Apr 2002 20:51:35 GMT
Daniel Fagerström wrote:

> > For sure we need more symmetry and more functionality in the pipelines.
> > If multiplexing and pipe-aware selection are the way to implement them
> > is yet to be understood.
> 
> Agreed, it is definitly my, (and all the other raving "pipe-aware
> selection" fans out there ;) ) resposibility to provide examples on how
> elegantly you can construct webapps with the help of just a few extra
> sitemap components. I hope to be able to provide some example code and
> an RT quite soon. Until then some sceptisism seem like a sound strategy.

Thanks. It's nice to see my unpopular metodology against FS appreciated
:)
 
> >>I know that there have been a lot of concern about that a DOM-based
> >>pipe-aware selection mechanism would be a performance bottleneck, but:
> <snip/>
> > Agreed. My concerns are *not* implementation-wise, I'm *never* concerned
> > by implementations because a community can always make it better.
> 
> Good, I know that you have said so before, but it is anyway a relief to
> hear you saying that in this particular context.

You will never find me concerned about implementations. My experience
tells me that in a healthy communities, code gets improved automatically
by people that step on the plate and make it happen.

If they don't, well, than the code was simply good enough :)

This is the only 'code metric' that can possibly work.
 
> > I'm concerned by architecture design because I don't think that it's
> > equivally easy to progressively refine an architecture, expecially when
> > you need to provide back compatibility from each incremental step.
> > It's easy to add stuff, much easier than *not* to add stuff.
>
> Yes, these are _very_ important concerns, there might be a quite thin line
> between entropy death from due to added features and stagnation death due
> to fear of adding anything at all.

Oh, please, this is unfair: don't you think that 'stagnating death' is a
little too strong for a project like this? I don't think that my
resistence to FS has stopped this project from becoming one of the most
impressively growing that I know of. I don't venture to say the opposite
(I might not be part of this, just luck maybe) but at least I don't
think my anti-FS attitude has brought any harm.

> I can asure you that architectural and conceptual elegance is extremely
> important for me. I have struggled with how to handle webapps with a
> minimal number, efficient, and easy to understand concepts for months.
> That of course doesn't necesarily means that the results of my thinking
> is the best possible way of solving this issues, but at least I take
> these things seriously.

Daniel, please understand that I never wanted to insult you or imply any
incapacity from your side. No way, dude: I *always* start from the point
where *you* have to teach *me* something that I didn't get before.

This is why I love this community: there is always something to learn.

If I stopped all efforts that didn't go in directions I already knew,
how would I learn something? How would this project grow?

Believe me: my job is *not* to put you down with no reason, or
masquerading the thing with a 'your stuff in not elegant' enough.

My job is to challenge new architectural ideas and, I think you saw
this, challenge them pretty hard, with the intention to show their
streghts and, hopefully, outline their weaknesses *before* the users
find them but we have already released it and we have to support it for
years!

I sincerely hope you understand my point and my reasons.

> Anyway I'l try to finish some examples and I'l also repackage the pipe-aware
> selector code to a scratchpad contribution and put my hope on that some
> kind commiter will add it :) In that case I need a small, small addition
> to one of the support classes in the interpreted sitemap - please, please
> consider adding it ;)

I'm not against small changes to the interpreted sitemap, I'm more
concerned by the 'multipaths' this creates: some people will use
pipe-aware selection and some might use another solution.

Then we find out that one of the two is weaker, but we still have to
support it.

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<stefano@apache.org>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
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