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From Stefano Mazzocchi <>
Subject Re: [SUMMARY] Viva la Multiplexer! (was: [Contribution] Pipe-aware selection)
Date Fri, 05 Apr 2002 20:51:35 GMT
Daniel Fagerström wrote:

> > For sure we need more symmetry and more functionality in the pipelines.
> > If multiplexing and pipe-aware selection are the way to implement them
> > is yet to be understood.
> Agreed, it is definitly my, (and all the other raving "pipe-aware
> selection" fans out there ;) ) resposibility to provide examples on how
> elegantly you can construct webapps with the help of just a few extra
> sitemap components. I hope to be able to provide some example code and
> an RT quite soon. Until then some sceptisism seem like a sound strategy.

Thanks. It's nice to see my unpopular metodology against FS appreciated
> >>I know that there have been a lot of concern about that a DOM-based
> >>pipe-aware selection mechanism would be a performance bottleneck, but:
> <snip/>
> > Agreed. My concerns are *not* implementation-wise, I'm *never* concerned
> > by implementations because a community can always make it better.
> Good, I know that you have said so before, but it is anyway a relief to
> hear you saying that in this particular context.

You will never find me concerned about implementations. My experience
tells me that in a healthy communities, code gets improved automatically
by people that step on the plate and make it happen.

If they don't, well, than the code was simply good enough :)

This is the only 'code metric' that can possibly work.
> > I'm concerned by architecture design because I don't think that it's
> > equivally easy to progressively refine an architecture, expecially when
> > you need to provide back compatibility from each incremental step.
> > It's easy to add stuff, much easier than *not* to add stuff.
> Yes, these are _very_ important concerns, there might be a quite thin line
> between entropy death from due to added features and stagnation death due
> to fear of adding anything at all.

Oh, please, this is unfair: don't you think that 'stagnating death' is a
little too strong for a project like this? I don't think that my
resistence to FS has stopped this project from becoming one of the most
impressively growing that I know of. I don't venture to say the opposite
(I might not be part of this, just luck maybe) but at least I don't
think my anti-FS attitude has brought any harm.

> I can asure you that architectural and conceptual elegance is extremely
> important for me. I have struggled with how to handle webapps with a
> minimal number, efficient, and easy to understand concepts for months.
> That of course doesn't necesarily means that the results of my thinking
> is the best possible way of solving this issues, but at least I take
> these things seriously.

Daniel, please understand that I never wanted to insult you or imply any
incapacity from your side. No way, dude: I *always* start from the point
where *you* have to teach *me* something that I didn't get before.

This is why I love this community: there is always something to learn.

If I stopped all efforts that didn't go in directions I already knew,
how would I learn something? How would this project grow?

Believe me: my job is *not* to put you down with no reason, or
masquerading the thing with a 'your stuff in not elegant' enough.

My job is to challenge new architectural ideas and, I think you saw
this, challenge them pretty hard, with the intention to show their
streghts and, hopefully, outline their weaknesses *before* the users
find them but we have already released it and we have to support it for

I sincerely hope you understand my point and my reasons.

> Anyway I'l try to finish some examples and I'l also repackage the pipe-aware
> selector code to a scratchpad contribution and put my hope on that some
> kind commiter will add it :) In that case I need a small, small addition
> to one of the support classes in the interpreted sitemap - please, please
> consider adding it ;)

I'm not against small changes to the interpreted sitemap, I'm more
concerned by the 'multipaths' this creates: some people will use
pipe-aware selection and some might use another solution.

Then we find out that one of the two is weaker, but we still have to
support it.

Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<>                             Friedrich Nietzsche

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