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From "Ivelin Ivanov" <>
Subject Re: continuation fear (was Re: [status & RT] design challenges)
Date Tue, 09 Apr 2002 14:07:35 GMT


Very strong points and I agree mostly.

Are you interested to step on the plate and write a marketing version of the
front page as you like it to look?

Please, say yes ;)


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mikhail Fedotov" <>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 4:47 AM
Subject: Re: continuation fear (was Re: [status & RT] design challenges)

> > > Cocoon still loses users and it's very sad ;(
> >
> > I don't have statistics to back it up, but I believe
> > Cocoon has more developers than ever. Just look at the
> > number of different people writing on cocoon-dev
> > nowadays. If at the same time the number of users
> > declines, could that mean Cocoon is a tool for
> > professional developers, not end users?
> Is it comparable with struts/jsp users ? :)
> I remember nice picture from Stefano's thesis about
> saturation growth. Maybe figures and numbers from that
> thesis will change situation a bit. That if they'll be put
> on the main page ( in the first place
> ? Plus som link to articles like the one from IBM where
> they were talking about their needs in xml for their site
> (I don't remember exact url now), and so on.
> I think that developers always know where too look for
> important stuff. For developers, it is'n difficult to find
> navigation on cocoon website. :)
> It seems to be more important to prepare first page for
> newcomers in doubt. How many of them cocoon2 is loosing now
> ?
> Now there is "Apache Cocoon is an XML publishing framework
> that raises the usage of XML and XSLT technologies for
> server applications to a new level. Designed for
> performance and scalability blah-blah-blah unimpressive
> words.
> Why not to put there figures about saturation and words
> that Cocoon2 technology delays that Saturation a bit and
> allow developers use their potential more extensively,
> blah-blah-blah again, for details on advantages look here,
> for list technologies used click here, for details on our
> technologis click here. Impressive pictures and words, and
> enough quick links for both interested and not yet
> interested visitors.
> For example, part of text: "Cocoon interacts with most data
> sources, including: filesystems, RDBMS, LDAP, native XML
> databases, and network-based data sources"
> That newcomers should think about too much those words - is
> it too much or two little, is it good or bad, and that all
> that buzzwords are for, is it put there as a warning or as
> an advertising ? "HTML, WML, PDF, SVG, RTF just to name a
> few" is good, but some could become curious why he can't
> just install more advanced separate SVG/PDF/etc
> editing/publishing programs and get the same ?
> Marketing people know alot about life and how people choose
> stuff. You can't ignore that and win. Look on Struts page
> for the words Model-View-Controller in bold: almost
> everybody have seen that word somewhere and respect it,
> plus there links to Sun stuff... "Jakarta Project", "Apache
> Software Foundation", "The official Struts page"... I don't
> know who wrote this and for that reason, but they've got an
> army of horses to drive new users just for those links and
> highlights on top of their main page. Cocoon2 main page
> seems weak and childish after that, really.
> Imagine how many people don't like Cocoon's samples only
> because they weren't motivated enough to download cocoon2
> and check them out. :)
> Mikhail
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