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From "Ivelin Ivanov" <ive...@iname.com>
Subject Re: [RT] Web Wizard Best Practices [was: Dynamic Schematron validation works!]
Date Sun, 17 Mar 2002 17:40:58 GMT

Jeremy,

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeremy Quinn" <jeremy@media.demon.co.uk>
To: <cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2002 4:47 AM
Subject: Re: Dynamic Schematron validation works!


> At 1:23 pm -0600 16/3/02, Ivelin Ivanov wrote:
> >As Torsten suggested, shall we please try to agree on the requirements
for
> >the problem we're trying to solve.
> >Starting with something non-trivial, but not too comlex as well. Just
enough
> >to demonstrate good potential and allow for further extension.
>
>
> Hi Ivelin,
>
> Not wanting to be negative or anything ... but we have quite different
> approaches driven by different needs, we may or may not be able to
> reconcile them.

That's perfectly fine with me.
Don't you think we should be able to agree on a problem that satisfies a
common subset of our real world scenarious which may be quite different for
everyone.
We can still end up with to 2 different possible solutions and offer these
as two alternative patterns.
My issue with the current stage with C2 is that there are no best practices
documents.
Most recently successful technologies have these documents which improve
their popularity and recognition by helping developers be more productive.

> It does not really matter right now, we will _all_ learn from both
attempts

That's one certain thing !

> What I mean more specifically:
>
> As I understand it .... you re trying to make a generic system (partially
> influenced by previous work done attempting to implement the XForms
> standard) for building complex business objects.
>
> Furthermore you are trying to make your _sitemap_ adapt itself to the
> progress of the transaction.

Actually Torsten has a stronger view on this approach.
I mostly agree with his ideas, though there are a few things we'll need to
iron out in the coming days.

I definitely want to understand your technique though. Don't want to rush
into a dead end street.

I'm mostly driven by the fast developments in the web services area.
Having faced an actual problem of converting a complex Web UI portal into
one that offers almost all of its UI functionality through web services, I
know that this turned out to be very hard while it could have been real
easy.

My humble vision is that in the near future successful web-app servers will
be
able to seamlessly integrate with web services. Web services already know
how to handle xml <-> object binding.
Web services have their WSFL - a standard flow control language.
http://xml.coverpages.org/wsfl.html
And lately there is the WSRP initiative which strives to bind Web UI to Web
Services.
http://xml.coverpages.org/ni2002-01-21-b.html
Those who have tried WebLogic 7.0 Cajun or similar IDEs, should have noticed
where things might be going.

Cocoon is a mature and sophisticated container and its future will be even
brighter if it allows for existing Web UI portals to offer their
functionality through web services with minimal investment.

> I on the other hand am trying to make generic patterns for assembling
> sitemap and XSLT components, as an example of how to add the ability to
> edit your own existing assets, to an existing publishing project.

I find this exciting and would certainly like to follow the development.
While working on these patterns I assume you will try to keep the lines
between presentation, content and logic bright and sharp.

>
> What's more, I am implementing my logic differently; by having
transformers
> modify the _content_ of the pipeline to adapt to the progress of the
> transaction.
>
> Both techniques are very interesting in their own right!

Have you checked this in? Where should I look?

> If I had access to the stuff you are doing now, 12 months ago, I'd be
> dancing in the streets! It was JUST what I wanted for the Crudlet project
I
> was working on, where we had large and complex JavaBeans to fill in and
> manipulate, requiring multiple forms to do the job.

I came across Crudlets recently and found it interesting, but it seemed like
there was no activity for quite a while.
What is the current status?

> If you were to follow my pattern (which I am not suggesting, this is just
> an illustration) you would:
>
> 1. Generate an Instance
> using XSP or RequestGenerator + XSLT etc.
>
> 2. Validate the Instance.
> using the delightful Schematron (thanks!)

so far so good.

>
> 3. Adapt the Instance (depending on validation result) into tags for a
> CastorTransformer, which makes/modifies/prods your bean.

The CastorTransformer marshalls a JavaBean into XML document. Currently it
only "prods" but does not "make/modify".
How would you bind the XML data from 2. into JavaBeans in the business
domain?

> 4. Adapt the Instance (depending on Castor result) into whatever your next
> stage needs to be

I assume you mean adapt through XSLT ?

> I do not think we are duplicating effort.
> I think both of these efforts will (at the very least) prove to be useful
> examples for other developers, regardless of the final outcome.
>
> As long as we keep sharing our ideas publicly (as has happened to great
> effect so far!) we have a win-win situation.
>
> I am not convinced that one pattern can solve every problem in this realm
> .... there is still a lot to explore ....

Definitely.
Let's keep it moving and close the subject this time.
It would be sad to see this discussion dead end like the other ones which
tried to tackle the same problem in the last 2 years.


Looking forward to your comments.


Cheers,


Ivelin


>
>
> Thanks for your help so far!
>
>
> regards Jeremy
> --
>    ___________________________________________________________________
>
>    Jeremy Quinn                                           Karma Divers
>                                                        webSpace Design
>                                             HyperMedia Research Centre
>
>    <mailto:sharkbait@mac.com>     <http://www.media.demon.co.uk>
>    <phone:+44.[0].20.7737.6831>             <pager:jermq@vizzavi.net>
>
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