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From Antti Koivunen <anryo...@users.sourceforge.net>
Subject Re: [UPDATE] Scheme/Cocoon progress - initial benchmarks show good speed!
Date Wed, 23 Jan 2002 05:32:54 GMT
Ovidiu Predescu wrote:
 > On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 10:47:41 +0200, Antti Koivunen
 > <anryoshi@users.sourceforge.net> wrote:
 >
 >
 >>Are there any technical reasons to be tied to a specific syntax (apart
 >>from optimization issues)? AIU, if the semantics are clear, it should be
 >>possible to define the necessary abstractions to allow the use of
 >>different syntaxes. IMO, one obvious implementation would BSF, as it's
 >>already included in the Cocoon distribution and would provide "of the
 >>shelf" support for JavaScript (Rhino) and Python (Jython), among others.
 >>
 >>It makes sense to limit the flexibility to some extent, but I don't see
 >>the choice of syntax as a major issue, as long as the context objects
 >>and interactions are well defined, and everything's properly documented.
 >>IMO, it would be a advantage to support popular scripting languages.
 >>
 >
 > The key technical issue is a language that support continuations. None
 > of the languages above supports it. To read more about what
 > continuations are and how they can help in building Web applications
 > check-out the following papers:
 >
 >   http://youpou.lip6.fr/queinnec/Papers/webcont.ps.gz
 >
 > and
 >
 >   http://www.cs.rice.edu/CS/PLT/Publications/esop2001-gkvf.ps.gz
 >
 > In case you need some quick introduction to Scheme, here's an online
 > introduction:
 >
 > http://www.cs.rice.edu/~dorai/t-y-scheme/
 >
 > Here's a longer, more complete document (is actually a printed book):
 >
 > http://www.scheme.com/tspl2d/
 >
 > The relevant threads on the Cocoon-dev on how continuations can be
 > used in the scope of Cocoon are here:
 >
 > 
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&w=2&r=1&s=flowmaps%3A+the+wrong+approach&q=t
 >
 > 
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?w=2&r=1&s=%5Brt%5D+Managing+Flow+and+Resources&q=t
 >
 > It's a lot of reading, so you may want to look at a complex sample of
 > how one would write a Web app using a language with continuations:
 >
 > http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-cocoon-dev&m=100802231017059&w=2

Thanks for all the refs. I was on vacation at the time and missed most
of the discussion. I'll have to look into these more to form a clear
opinion. Still, I think we shouldn't ignore the implications of forcing
users to learn an unfamiliar syntax.

If there's a fundamental mismatch (support for continuations), wouldn't
it make sense to define a high-level interface for flowmap processing,
which would allow people to experiment with alternative syntaxes, even
if it means loosing some of the expressive power.

I don't mean to duplicate efforts unnecessarely, and I acknowledge the
danger of FS, but we have to realize that most people tend to C things
in a certain way. And as Howard Aiken once said, "Don't worry about
people stealing an idea. If it's original, you will have to ram it down
their throats."

I'm just saying that users with a sore throat might not realize the
possibilities, but look elsewhere for the cure.

(: Anrie ;)
-- 
Antti Koivunen | "Anrie" [un-ree] <anryoshi@users.sf.net>
---------------------------------------------------------
musician | graphic designer | software architect | wrote:
---------------------------------------------------------
The song of life might not be an easy one,
but there's plenty of room for improvisation.
---------------------------------------------------------



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