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From "Robert Koberg" <>
Subject Re: Understanding cocoon ......
Date Fri, 11 Jan 2002 11:32:35 GMT

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stefano Mazzocchi" <>

> Robert Koberg wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Stefano Mazzocchi" <>
> > > Christoph Henrici wrote:
> > > >
> > > >   I have been studying, testing and playing around with cocoon in
> > > > last few days as a newcomer : i am greatly impressed with what ease
> > > > cocoon "pipelines" arbrary data sources can be "chained" to a result
> > > > target: a very powerful paradigm (pipe) applied in a powerful
> > > > (http) by using great technology (xml, xlst).
> > >
> > > Yep, I think you really hit the point. Some people believe that it's
> > > enough to add server side transformation capabilities (say, adding a
> > > XSLT post-processor as a servlet filter!) to come up with a publishing
> > > framework.
> >
> > I guess I am one of those :)  But I guess you are talking about much
> > publishing needs. It is all relative.
> Oh, yes. I was not referring to ad-hoc solutions but to who wants to
> take a publishing system (say Turbine), add an XML transformation
> language on top (say DVSL*) and voila': who needs Cocoon?
> (*)
> > I have not used cocoon2 yet. I had very bad experiences adopting cocoon1
> > (right when it came out -- MacMillan's - god, I wish I
> > could take that one back :( for many things besides cocoon's PIs - my
> > "real" web-site...). When I understand what I needed (too late) I
> > that cocoon was the furthest thing. I am hoping to gather this info
> > cocoon2 from you guys (and maybe throw my 2cents in every now and then
> > It sounds like you have a fantastic product. I would have installed it
> > play around with but all the other things you need... Then again, all
> > buzz makes it very interesting.
> I've talked with many people that were scared away by Cocoon1. No excuse
> there: it was a first try and a pretty home-made one. But considering
> that the XML model is not yet finished, the XML spec is 4 years old and
> Cocoon is 3 years old, I think that we did have a good excuse to try
> things out.

I jumped on board and really loved the ideas. It got me thinking in this
direction so I am very appreciative of that - thanks!

> Cocoon2 is an industrial-quality product, both in design and
> implementation. Ignoring for past experiences is not only blind, is
> plain stupid.

I know, that is why I am here listening (mostly :). Some things I like, some
I don't. Are you calling me stupid? :)

> At the same time, Cocoon1 is *still* used in heavy loaded production
> sites and makes me think that if such a limited architecture could reach
> that point, what will we do with Cocoon2?
> I'm so excited to see this :)
> > I wonder if cocoon is bloatware, at least for my needs.
> Cocoon includes many things and, granted, more that you need. It's more
> or less like PHP but with more modern design concepts (not that PHP is
> not modern, it's very cool indeed!, but lacks the concept of SoC right
> into the HTML+script design concept!).
> And for sure it's big: it is reaching the point where we have more java
> code in Cocoon than in the entire JDK! and that sums up to hundreds of
> thousands of lines of code!!! and written in a few years! Apache has
> more productivity of good quality java code than Sun itself!
> And if that was not enough, the community is one of the most active and,
> even better, it seems to be magnetically attracting other efforts as
> well (FOP, Batik, XIndice, POI, DELI) and triggering lots of
> cross-pollination in beween the ASF efforts (avalon, xalan, gump,
> forrest).
> > When working with a
> > small team (say 5-10 people spread out all over the world, well, US and
> > England) servlets and xslt/xml seem to do everything I need.
> Hey, if that works for you, great. But the fact that you stick around
> here seems to suggest that you find our input useful. So, I would
> suggest not to discard the software that was distilled after that input
> :)

Oh, I'm not. I am just being more careful this time. Once bitten, twice shy.

> > They work on
> > it dynamicially and then generate it as a static site whenever they
> > And I would bet there are few people who can create a large
> > site faster.
> Never say never.

I never did :)

> > My sites (large publishing companies) are perhaps well-suited
> > to this though and other sites are perhaps better suited to cocoon.
> >
> > Why scoff something that works?
> > Why is it a bad thing?
> Never said that.

never say never :) OK

> My only point is: how do you know if your stuff is any better than
> cocoon2 since you didn't even try it?

I just downloaded it about an hour or two ago.


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