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From "Robert Koberg" <>
Subject Re: [RT] Enhancing Cocoon Visibility
Date Wed, 16 Jan 2002 00:27:05 GMT
I agree with Michael that doing this will make users think twice (perhaps
even make them leave without further investigation), but I would still do
it. Branding is extremely important. I don't know how you guys do this work
for no pay.  If cocoon was put on the VC table (even now) you guys would
walk away set for life - then you can do whatever you want (and piss-off
whover you want :)

I have an (old) idea that might work in this situation.

(note: I used to work for MACR)

At Macromedia we sold authoring software that allowed author-users to create
CDROM (~web~) pieces/movies.  They could freely distribute the
pieces/movies. If they did not want to pay any licensing fees for
distribution they had to show the MACR logo (perhaps C2's version is the
header??) at the end of the movie (that is, 'Made With Macromedia' as a
vector graphic).

What if apache projects adopted the same type of thing?  'Use it for free
and advertise the project, else if you do not want to help promote the
project pay us a licensing fee that will go to fund further apache
projects'. Of course, if you do that you are going to have to have and  to handle everything :)

You can say the licensing fee goes to buying the best hardware & track user
bases (that are not detectable) so projects can be given appropriate weight
on the apache servers.


From: "Michael Hartle" <>

> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> >what to do?
> >
> >I see a number of solutions (you have more, make yourself heard):
> >
> > 1) adding an implicit 'cocoon-status' resource (for example
> >/about-cocoon)
> >
> > 2) adding a implicit 'about' resource view (for example
> >?cocoon-view='about')
> >
> > 3) adding cocoon-specific HTTP header to the response (for example
> >x-cocoon: 2.0.12)
> >
> >Of course, we must prevent people from having the chance to disable this
> >so we must make sure things have a very low impact on resource.
> >
> The first impression of mine is that approaching a viable interest like
> this scares the shit out of me, pardon my language please.
> Yes, I mostly agree on your assessment, both Cocoon and its users
> benefit from the visibility, but enforcing visibility by either
> polluting their URI space (1) or "extending" someone elses web
> application semantics (2) is something I would consider as an offence to
> the current user base and incompatible to the concept of free
> participation. I would consider (3) to be the least intrusive one, but
> preventing people to disable this either due to their personal taste or
> for a real need of theirs is dangerous:
> * Being able to question version information to automatically exploit
> defects or security holes is something that I started hating when I had
> my first bigger source-level look into a project, which was the de-facto
> standard DNS server BIND; a certain, specific DNS query (class=chaos,
> type=txt) makes bind respond with more than sufficient versioning
> information, a perfect basis for automation. I *do* believe in
> publically declaring defects and security holes, but I am against making
> it *that* easy for script kiddies.
> * Not being able to turn of versioning information opens up a
> possibility for articifical incompatibilities or product capabilities; I
> do not yet expect this to happen, but I'd hate it to see some commercial
> tool of mine either refuse to work with a cocoon-based web system or
> request an upgrade to a pro version I directly could buy online.
> I understand the hunger for visibility for this project, but enforcing
> this is the wrong way; my guess is that this would only spark an
> open-source project for filtering this out, and any measures taken to
> protect that versioning information from being stomped out of the
> original source code would only make it worse. Instead, let's turn to
> make people think about freely supporting Cocoon instead; do we have a
> "this site is powered by cocoon" button readily / widely available ? We
> might put that directly into each and every release for a start,
> encouraging people to use it whereever possible.
> Concerning visibility, what about writing a book about Cocoon as a
> community project, publishing it and using any what-so-ever-income to
> help fund Apache ? What about writing articles for computer magazines
> such as c't or iX in Germany ?
> Best regards,
> Michael Hartle
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