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From MJ Ray <>
Subject Re: [RT] Managing Flow and Resources
Date Tue, 11 Dec 2001 17:22:14 GMT
Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
>> The schemer would say that XML syntax is a huge step backwards from what
>> already existed... ;-)
>Granted :) [in fact, I was told that Guy Steele now uses XML as a
>defense to parethesis frequency in Scheme]

Like they say, Lispers were there decades before most people, but it looks
like all they will have to show for it is the knowledge that they were there
decades before most people.

>Still, the user base is what it is and we must be as user-friendly as
>possible: for example, I personally think that italian is a great
>language to express many things in a much more detailed and precise way
>than english, but how would you feel if I required you to learn italian
>in order to use Cocoon?

I would say that it is perfectly fair, but would ask you in my best (still
very bad) Italian that we use the most common neutral language instead. 
Projects like Apache are pointed up as examples of meritocracy in action,
but what is meritocratic about giving people an advantage based on their
native tongue?

>I know I'm exagerating, but that's on purpose: user-friendly is also a
>mean of getting close to the user and on the web, the amount of schemers
>is very close to zero. (unfortunately, you might say and I wouldn't
>disagree myself, but that's the way it is and we don't have the power,
>right now, to change this).

Very close to zero is relative.  The people doing scheme-web things are
doing some quite interesting research, but there are a lot less of them than
java-web people.  Of course, the number of java-web people doing something
as interesting as Cocoon is very close to zero too, relative to the number
of java-web people as a whole.

>At the same time, introducing the concept of continations to java
>programmers would open up their minds and make Cocoon different from any
>other implementation of a java webapp framework.

I think continutations could be a powerful new tool, but I'm still surprised
that they haven't been widely implemented in the schemes that compile to JVM
code if there isn't some serious drawback to them.  I expect that the
drawback is efficiency of implementation and execution, which could make C2
harder to tune than the posts to the -users list suggest it already is. 

Ovidiu's postings have only scratched the surface of the complexity that can
be modelled simply with them, so it would be a good addition to the toolbox
if possible, so definitely worth researching.  As always, I could be talking
out the back of my head here and anyway I'm not someone with a vote,
although I can go beg someone who is...
MJR ,----------------------------------------------------
    | Q. Do you need a net-based application developing, 
    |    or advice and training about web technology?
    | A. I suggest you try

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