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From Stefano Mazzocchi <stef...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Cocoon and browsers
Date Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:26:48 GMT
Might be slightly OT, but anyway...

Andrew Answer wrote:
> 
> Hello Stefano,
> 
> > From: Stefano Mazzocchi <stefano@apache.org>
> > To: cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org <cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org>
> > Date: Sunday, December 09, 2001, 5:05:47 AM
> > Subject: Cocoon and browsers
> > Andrew Answer wrote:
> 
> >>   2. I'm download & install the Amaya browser/editor from W3C.
> >>   (http://www.w3.org/Amaya)
> >>   I think, it's fantastic way to freedom in the Web! It's really do
> >>   web content editable (as i see in "sharing microsoft experience"
> >>   thread in this list, this feature extremely needed for clients).
> >>   Many other features work: zooming pages with graphics & titles,
> >>   MathML, SVG & CSS visual support, truly right (but not full)
> >>   implementations of standards (XPointer, XLink, RDF). This is
> >>   open-source, Java-based tool, which are can be a window to
> >>   freedom in the future!
> 
> > W3C Amaya is written in C++ and, honestly, is like more or less all the
> > other W3C software implementations: proof of concepts and not targetted
> > for general and wide use.
> 
> Language is not important, realized ideas is important.

Absolutely. I was just pointing out that Amaya is *NOT* written in Java
(as you mentioned).

> Zooming pages with graphics & titles don't break design - where i can
> see this? 

I don't see the need for zooming pages. I do see the need for enlarging
text or overwrite the stylesheet with a user-selected one, but both
mozilla and IE have this.

> Editable HTML/XML-tree window - it's new look on _downloaded_
> page structure (not created by you, but downloaded!).

As mozilla does.

> Integrated validation of HTML conformance - where it's present?
> I use other tools
> for this; i write scripts and make links for this and i can push my
> button for validation - but any user must build this environment again.

I'm pretty sure it would take some half an hour for a mozilla programmer
to add link to the W3C validator from the editor page. Why don't you
sent a feature request?
 
> >>   But many problems also present. Images blinked when i scroll and
> >>   resize browser windows. No other features (XML, XSLT, Schema validating,
> >>   SGML, XForms, XML Query, SMIL) still not supported. I think, what
> >>   W3 Consortium simply haven't time for realize/programming own
> >>   standards. It's bad, but work of W3C is creating standards/specs and
> >>   on this way they achieved a significant success.
> 
> > Amaya has been around for many more years than mozilla.org and there is
> > no community around it. I personally wouldn't count on it to get any
> > better than this.
> 
> Yes, W3C even didn't must be faster than mozilla. Other work, other
> targets.

Exactly: W3C writes proof of concepts, Netscape wrote software that work
on real life.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against proof of concepts, but
I don't suggest them in commercial environments (as I didn't suggest
using Cocoon 1 until it was ready)

> >>   X-Smiles (http://www.xsmiles.org) realize SMIL, XForms, SVG, skins,
> >>   and this is also open-source project.
> >>
> >>   But it's version 0.45 and is too buggy.
> >>
> >>   3. My point of view is:
> >>     * any file which you downloading may be edited very, very fast.
> >>     Browser is a editor - this is cool thing! Later you can send file
> >>     back to server, save or print - it's your freedom. MathML, SVG &
> >>     RDF support also already realized in Amaya. Can Mozilla community
> >>     adapt these features in own browser?
> 
> > SVG support will probably make it in Mozilla 1.0 (at least the static
> > part). RDF is already supported in the Mozilla internals (well, Mozilla
> > appears to be the *only* recognized software product that uses RDF at
> > the moment). Lack of MathML is not exactly something that would make me
> > cry.
> 
> I strongly needed for MathML support because i try to publish
> mathematical guide in the Web and i'm confuse; too much work needed for
> html converting and styling. Of course, i can use SVG for drawing
> formulas but it's not right way, it's crude approximation to ideal;

Granted. Even if, once SVG is implemented into Mozilla, it would be a
couple of stylesheets away to add MathML. You can't say the opposite for
Amaya.

> don't want use style instead of information. What user download - set
> of pictures? Thanks, i want get to him something other.
> Think, millions of books wait to publish: mathematic, geometry, physic,
> electronic, chemistry manuals, references and guides lie and wait when
> we can read it.

Absolutely, I never said that MathML doesn't have a place in a web
browser, but it's a matter of priorities.

 I can use PDF versions, but I don't know, MathML
> supported in FOP?

Many people asked for it, but nobody stood up to implement it.

> >>     * for really moving web to using XML streams, SOAP & WebDAV we
> >>     MUST collaborate with Mozilla creators
> 
> > I did make contacts with the editor group in Mozilla and they filed a
> > "request for feature" for cloning IE 5.5 contentEditable="true"
> > attribute that turns the content of the element editable. They also said
> > that direct CSS editing support will make it into Mozilla 1.0.
> 
> Browser is a editor - now i never see this (except Amaya). I want to
> call your attention on this again and explain my idea.
> 
> When user download the page, he can use anything with it, you see? Now
> user get html, later he can get xml. But what you want to do with his
> wishes of page editing? You want to do _something_ areas editable.
> "He-he-he", say user, and he open text editor for edit of ANYTHING.
> Content owner/author can't forbid and even restrict editing of
> downloaded content, but why is a problem for his consciousness? His
> information lie on his hard disk, his readers read his articles, and
> so on. Information has not been destroyed, it's will be copied.
> 
> But why not implement edit mode in browser? Integrate this natural
> possibility in window, where user now can only _see_ (and select &
> save) content, and two-direction streams of information will change
> the web-world.

ehmm, mozilla already *has* an editor built into the browser (the
mozilla 'composer'), but my point was that giving too much editing
freedom to "some" users is asking for trouble and Amaya doesn't allow me
to restrict this editing freedom so it's useless for *MY* needs.

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<stefano@apache.org>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
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