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From Stefano Mazzocchi <stef...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Cocoon and browsers
Date Sat, 08 Dec 2001 23:05:47 GMT
Andrew Answer wrote:

>   2. I'm download & install the Amaya browser/editor from W3C.
>   (http://www.w3.org/Amaya)
>   I think, it's fantastic way to freedom in the Web! It's really do
>   web content editable (as i see in "sharing microsoft experience"
>   thread in this list, this feature extremely needed for clients).
>   Many other features work: zooming pages with graphics & titles,
>   MathML, SVG & CSS visual support, truly right (but not full)
>   implementations of standards (XPointer, XLink, RDF). This is
>   open-source, Java-based tool, which are can be a window to
>   freedom in the future!

W3C Amaya is written in C++ and, honestly, is like more or less all the
other W3C software implementations: proof of concepts and not targetted
for general and wide use.

>   But many problems also present. Images blinked when i scroll and
>   resize browser windows. No other features (XML, XSLT, Schema validating,
>   SGML, XForms, XML Query, SMIL) still not supported. I think, what
>   W3 Consortium simply haven't time for realize/programming own
>   standards. It's bad, but work of W3C is creating standards/specs and
>   on this way they achieved a significant success.

Amaya has been around for many more years than mozilla.org and there is
no community around it. I personally wouldn't count on it to get any
better than this.
 
>   X-Smiles (http://www.xsmiles.org) realize SMIL, XForms, SVG, skins,
>   and this is also open-source project.
> 
>   But it's version 0.45 and is too buggy.
> 
>   3. My point of view is:
>     * any file which you downloading may be edited very, very fast.
>     Browser is a editor - this is cool thing! Later you can send file
>     back to server, save or print - it's your freedom. MathML, SVG &
>     RDF support also already realized in Amaya. Can Mozilla community
>     adapt these features in own browser?

SVG support will probably make it in Mozilla 1.0 (at least the static
part). RDF is already supported in the Mozilla internals (well, Mozilla
appears to be the *only* recognized software product that uses RDF at
the moment). Lack of MathML is not exactly something that would make me
cry.

>     * for really moving web to using XML streams, SOAP & WebDAV we
>     MUST collaborate with Mozilla creators

I did make contacts with the editor group in Mozilla and they filed a
"request for feature" for cloning IE 5.5 contentEditable="true"
attribute that turns the content of the element editable. They also said
that direct CSS editing support will make it into Mozilla 1.0.

>     * open source projects is a world of code & ideas exchanging,
>     isn't it? Why browser creator communities closed on your products
>     and write identical code again and again?

That's a good point.

I asked the Mozilla guys why they keep on working on their own version
of a XSLT transformer when Apache has Xalan C which would be pretty easy
to integrate as an XPCOM component.

My personal opinion is that mozilla.org is simply netscape repainted and
until they release a solid 1.0 version, nobody is really going to base
anything on them (ActiveState did, but Komodo is buggy as hell!), nor
work with them and help open their mind on what open source really is.

Until now, with some rare exceptions, mozilla.org has been "netscape
done in the open".
 
>     ..and if any who use browser can be produce own content in
>     real-time & publish it on the own server - it's will be true Web!

I perfectly agree that Apache and Mozilla should work together to keep
the market "sane" in terms of standard compliance.

It would also mean to have the *real* 'freedom to innovate' without
proprietary lock-ins or monopolistic moves that you would expect from
any commercial entity (remember: mozilla.org is sponsored by netscape,
but the license allows me, you and your dog to fork this project if we
don't like what mozilla is doing! this alone avoids any possible future
lockin!)

But I think this can happen only when Mozilla 1.0 get finally released
(and I wouldn't expect this in less than 6 more months, unfortunately).

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<stefano@apache.org>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
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