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From Andrew Answer <A.Nuzh...@ftc.ru>
Subject Re[2]: Cocoon and browsers
Date Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:08:11 GMT
Hello Stefano,

> From: Stefano Mazzocchi <stefano@apache.org>
> To: cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org <cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org>
> Date: Sunday, December 09, 2001, 5:05:47 AM
> Subject: Cocoon and browsers
> Andrew Answer wrote:

>>   2. I'm download & install the Amaya browser/editor from W3C.
>>   (http://www.w3.org/Amaya)
>>   I think, it's fantastic way to freedom in the Web! It's really do
>>   web content editable (as i see in "sharing microsoft experience"
>>   thread in this list, this feature extremely needed for clients).
>>   Many other features work: zooming pages with graphics & titles,
>>   MathML, SVG & CSS visual support, truly right (but not full)
>>   implementations of standards (XPointer, XLink, RDF). This is
>>   open-source, Java-based tool, which are can be a window to
>>   freedom in the future!

> W3C Amaya is written in C++ and, honestly, is like more or less all the
> other W3C software implementations: proof of concepts and not targetted
> for general and wide use.

Language is not important, realized ideas is important.
Zooming pages with graphics & titles don't break design - where i can
see this? Editable HTML/XML-tree window - it's new look on _downloaded_
page structure (not created by you, but downloaded!). Integrated
validation of HTML conformance - where it's present? I use other tools
for this; i write scripts and make links for this and i can push my
button for validation - but any user must build this environment again.

>>   But many problems also present. Images blinked when i scroll and
>>   resize browser windows. No other features (XML, XSLT, Schema validating,
>>   SGML, XForms, XML Query, SMIL) still not supported. I think, what
>>   W3 Consortium simply haven't time for realize/programming own
>>   standards. It's bad, but work of W3C is creating standards/specs and
>>   on this way they achieved a significant success.

> Amaya has been around for many more years than mozilla.org and there is
> no community around it. I personally wouldn't count on it to get any
> better than this.
 
Yes, W3C even didn't must be faster than mozilla. Other work, other
targets.

>>   X-Smiles (http://www.xsmiles.org) realize SMIL, XForms, SVG, skins,
>>   and this is also open-source project.
>> 
>>   But it's version 0.45 and is too buggy.
>> 
>>   3. My point of view is:
>>     * any file which you downloading may be edited very, very fast.
>>     Browser is a editor - this is cool thing! Later you can send file
>>     back to server, save or print - it's your freedom. MathML, SVG &
>>     RDF support also already realized in Amaya. Can Mozilla community
>>     adapt these features in own browser?

> SVG support will probably make it in Mozilla 1.0 (at least the static
> part). RDF is already supported in the Mozilla internals (well, Mozilla
> appears to be the *only* recognized software product that uses RDF at
> the moment). Lack of MathML is not exactly something that would make me
> cry.

I strongly needed for MathML support because i try to publish
mathematical guide in the Web and i'm confuse; too much work needed for
html converting and styling. Of course, i can use SVG for drawing
formulas but it's not right way, it's crude approximation to ideal; i
don't want use style instead of information. What user download - set
of pictures? Thanks, i want get to him something other.
Think, millions of books wait to publish: mathematic, geometry, physic,
electronic, chemistry manuals, references and guides lie and wait when
we can read it. I can use PDF versions, but I don't know, MathML
supported in FOP? And in future i think what pages in browser can be
look as pages in Acrobat Reader (some targets for mozilla developers:
antialiasing, non-breakable design when zooming, content dragging
inside window, why don't?)...

>>     * for really moving web to using XML streams, SOAP & WebDAV we
>>     MUST collaborate with Mozilla creators

> I did make contacts with the editor group in Mozilla and they filed a
> "request for feature" for cloning IE 5.5 contentEditable="true"
> attribute that turns the content of the element editable. They also said
> that direct CSS editing support will make it into Mozilla 1.0.

Browser is a editor - now i never see this (except Amaya). I want to
call your attention on this again and explain my idea.

When user download the page, he can use anything with it, you see? Now
user get html, later he can get xml. But what you want to do with his
wishes of page editing? You want to do _something_ areas editable.
"He-he-he", say user, and he open text editor for edit of ANYTHING.
Content owner/author can't forbid and even restrict editing of
downloaded content, but why is a problem for his consciousness? His
information lie on his hard disk, his readers read his articles, and
so on. Information has not been destroyed, it's will be copied.

But why not implement edit mode in browser? Integrate this natural
possibility in window, where user now can only _see_ (and select &
save) content, and two-direction streams of information will change
the web-world. 

>>     * open source projects is a world of code & ideas exchanging,
>>     isn't it? Why browser creator communities closed on your products
>>     and write identical code again and again?

> That's a good point.

> I asked the Mozilla guys why they keep on working on their own version
> of a XSLT transformer when Apache has Xalan C which would be pretty easy
> to integrate as an XPCOM component.

> My personal opinion is that mozilla.org is simply netscape repainted and
> until they release a solid 1.0 version, nobody is really going to base
> anything on them (ActiveState did, but Komodo is buggy as hell!), nor
> work with them and help open their mind on what open source really is.

> Until now, with some rare exceptions, mozilla.org has been "netscape
> done in the open".
 
>>     ..and if any who use browser can be produce own content in
>>     real-time & publish it on the own server - it's will be true Web!

> I perfectly agree that Apache and Mozilla should work together to keep
> the market "sane" in terms of standard compliance.

> It would also mean to have the *real* 'freedom to innovate' without
> proprietary lock-ins or monopolistic moves that you would expect from
> any commercial entity (remember: mozilla.org is sponsored by netscape,
> but the license allows me, you and your dog to fork this project if we
> don't like what mozilla is doing! this alone avoids any possible future
> lockin!)

> But I think this can happen only when Mozilla 1.0 get finally released
> (and I wouldn't expect this in less than 6 more months, unfortunately).

  Well, well... but still we wait, we work... ;)

Best regards,
  Andrew Answer               A.Nuzhdov@ftc.ru


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