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From "Alberto G." <>
Subject Re: x:forge remarks
Date Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:36:18 GMT

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefano Mazzocchi" <>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: x:forge remarks

> "Alberto G." wrote:
> >
> > I read in the cocoon mailing list about x:forge valutation and project.
> >
> > It's a surprise for me read that there is a project to rewrite, totally
> > partially, x:forge by Ricardo Rocha.
> >
> > My position and attention about x:forge is always very strong,
> > from the status of Bibop R&D or others enterprise reality. I can assure
> > my entusiasm for the project is the same that 6 month ago when i started
> > writing it, and I would like to partecipate in its evolution and future
> > projects.
> >
> > For this reason I ask you to consider my position, opinion and
> > for every x:forge project, this for the time, the attention,  the
> > effource i have dedicated to x:forge in its total implementation.
> Alberto,
> thanks for joining us (and sorry for the delay you had in the email,
> there is no filter cospiracy of sort here and there will never be).
> For those of you who didn't take a look at the x:forge code, Alberto is
> the author and, for what I can tell, a very good programmer and knower
> of the internals of both Cocoon1, Cocoon2 and Avalon.
> Ricardo independently thought about something along the lines of X:Forge
> a long time ago (you knew that) and he is simply moving forward some of
> those ideas in a closed way (something I admittedly don't like, but
> that's the way he works and even if I tried, I can't change his mind on
> this).
> As far as post-XSP dynamic XML generation goes, the community will
> decide what to use and will depend on the code, the documentation
> available, the examples to show its power, the vocality of the author on
> the list, his/her ability to reply to user's email and such.
> It takes much more than code to build a community.
> I'm stating the obvious, I know, but this is to tell you that you should
> not think that we are throwing away x:forge and start again just because
> there are some negative feelings between people on this list about what
> happened in Bibop.
> No, I won't let personal interests blind us in technical questions. I
> hope you trust me on this as much as you trusted me on other questions.
> To be honest, I thought about moving x:forge over into the Cocoon HEAD
> CVS branch both to move forward and to push Ricardo, but I was afraid of
> the "black box" effect where unmaintained code goes into the
> distribution and nobody really knows what's going on.
> Your active presence on this list will automatically remove my concerns.
> Please understand this is a general thing and it's not related by you
> nor x:forge: I'm more concerned about community that code because a good
> community creates good code, but good code doesn't automatically create
> good communities.
> In fact, the XSP engine and Ricardo's spotty presence happen to have the
> same situation.
> As well as current discussions about the SQL part with Donald away for
> some time.
> The community will vote whether to accept x:forge or Ricardo's DXML in
> the distribution, but more than accepting blackbox contributions, I'd
> love to see development taking place internally.
> And this is a warning to Ricardo as well.
> I will personally reject code donations unless backed up with
> documentation, samples, and, more important, a more or less guaranteed
> presence on the mail lists of the original author and maintainer.
> I hope this clarifies the issues on this and shows you the transparency
> you were expecting on the cocoon-dev mail list.

As i said before, i'd like to mantain and improve x:forge and, if the
community consider
it a possible alternative to XSP, to offer you a full support to understand
and modify it.

I'll be very happy if the community will help me to improve the code :-)

For all of them that hasn't seen it and are interested take a look at

Please send me any suggest.


Alberto Garoffolo.

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