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From Stefano Mazzocchi <>
Subject Re: x:forge remarks
Date Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:29:40 GMT
"Alberto G." wrote:
> I read in the cocoon mailing list about x:forge valutation and project.
> It's a surprise for me read that there is a project to rewrite, totally or
> partially, x:forge by Ricardo Rocha.
> My position and attention about x:forge is always very strong, indipendently
> from the status of Bibop R&D or others enterprise reality. I can assure that
> my entusiasm for the project is the same that 6 month ago when i started
> writing it, and I would like to partecipate in its evolution and future
> projects.
> For this reason I ask you to consider my position, opinion and disponibility
> for every x:forge project, this for the time, the attention,  the projectual
> effource i have dedicated to x:forge in its total implementation.


thanks for joining us (and sorry for the delay you had in the email,
there is no filter cospiracy of sort here and there will never be).

For those of you who didn't take a look at the x:forge code, Alberto is
the author and, for what I can tell, a very good programmer and knower
of the internals of both Cocoon1, Cocoon2 and Avalon.

Ricardo independently thought about something along the lines of X:Forge
a long time ago (you knew that) and he is simply moving forward some of
those ideas in a closed way (something I admittedly don't like, but
that's the way he works and even if I tried, I can't change his mind on

As far as post-XSP dynamic XML generation goes, the community will
decide what to use and will depend on the code, the documentation
available, the examples to show its power, the vocality of the author on
the list, his/her ability to reply to user's email and such.

It takes much more than code to build a community.

I'm stating the obvious, I know, but this is to tell you that you should
not think that we are throwing away x:forge and start again just because
there are some negative feelings between people on this list about what
happened in Bibop. 

No, I won't let personal interests blind us in technical questions. I
hope you trust me on this as much as you trusted me on other questions.

To be honest, I thought about moving x:forge over into the Cocoon HEAD
CVS branch both to move forward and to push Ricardo, but I was afraid of
the "black box" effect where unmaintained code goes into the
distribution and nobody really knows what's going on.

Your active presence on this list will automatically remove my concerns.

Please understand this is a general thing and it's not related by you
nor x:forge: I'm more concerned about community that code because a good
community creates good code, but good code doesn't automatically create
good communities.

In fact, the XSP engine and Ricardo's spotty presence happen to have the
same situation.

As well as current discussions about the SQL part with Donald away for
some time.

The community will vote whether to accept x:forge or Ricardo's DXML in
the distribution, but more than accepting blackbox contributions, I'd
love to see development taking place internally.

And this is a warning to Ricardo as well.

I will personally reject code donations unless backed up with
documentation, samples, and, more important, a more or less guaranteed
presence on the mail lists of the original author and maintainer.

I hope this clarifies the issues on this and shows you the transparency
you were expecting on the cocoon-dev mail list.



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