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From Stefano Mazzocchi <>
Subject Re: Cocoon and Axis
Date Fri, 05 Oct 2001 10:31:12 GMT
Sam Ruby wrote:
> James Snell wrote:
> >
> > Hey cool... we're getting into personal attacks again! Hey everybody,
> pull
> > up a chair, grab your popcorn!
> >
> > Why don't we cut the personal crap and just get stuff done.
> As an aside: don't bother defending me.  What first made me known to the
> Apache community was the "asbestos underwear" I seem to be blessed with and
> withstanding the initial personal attacks from the one and only Stefano
> Mazzocchi; the creator of cocoon.

:) underwear that was previously put to under serious tests by Marc
himself previously, so don't worry, nobody is going to get hurt.

Anyway, all of us (Marc, Sam, Berin and myself) know very well that
creating and bootstrapping a healthy deveopment community is hard, takes
time, energy and a good deal of luck.

But everybody has his own "style" in doing so, which might result in
different ways of doing things and different evolutionary curves.

Anyway, I personally bootstrapped several different communities (JMeter,
Avalon, James, Cocoon, FOP, helped with JServ 1.0 internal fork, a
little with Tomcat [enough to flame Sam :)], Ant and Batik) and my
experience tells me that Marc is right: give commit access is *always*
better than non giving it. Even if one guy ends up erasing the entire
codebase (well, we have CVS to protect against that anyway). [but this
never happened to me, really]

But there are situations (I remember JMeter being in this phase for
almost a year) where the interest of the original project
creator/proponent moved someplace else (we were starting the avalon
project) but nobody else was interested enough to maintain the
community. I had start giving almost everybody that submitted a patch
commit access to push this and finally ended up having a couple of
serious committed people that are now still coordinating the project
(which I don't follow anymore).

It might seem stange to you people, but the very same happened here for
Cocoon: I had to focus on getting my college degree done and Cocoon was
simply too much of an effort, but nobody at that time was willing to
take my position, then Giacomo came and I could drop the ball (no, not
Donald :) on him. Thing that he did with Carsten :)

Well, this happened so many times in the communities I've been part of,
that I believe that a community can be said healthy if it survives
(means: keeps up the good work) his creator leaving for at least 6
months without forking, nor increasing the flame-rate, nor reducing the
commit/mail frequency.

Of course, this is not a necessary condition (there are healthy project
were the project creator never left), but it is a sufficient one.

So, getting to the bone: I suggest to the axis developers to be less
worried about the impact of giving more commit access to people and to
Marc to trust Sam more: he's really a great guy and wears his IBM hat
only when absolutely necessary (and sometimes that really helps).

Happy coding to all :)

Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<>                             Friedrich Nietzsche

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