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From Stefano Mazzocchi <>
Subject Re: Unfair statement
Date Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:45:45 GMT

you are perfectly right when you say that I made unfair statements.

This email is both to apologize and further explain my points since last
thing I want is creating friction between Apache projects or developers.

Jon Stevens wrote:
> On cocoon-dev you said:
> > But I'm sure people there is a bunch of people (Jon being one of them)
> > who greatly prefer being lazy first and do painful rewriting later,
> > rather than think more at first and avoid stupid mistakes later.
> Sigh,
> That is a really fucked up thing to say Stefano.

Sorry, you're right. After rereading it, it tastes very bad in my mouth.
I'll restate my concepts down below, hopefully in a better way.
> What I prefer is getting a solution out so that people (like myself) can use
> it.

So do I.

> I don't have the time to always think about things like I would like to.

I do, good or bad that's been my way of producing things.

> But that is also a learning process in itself.

Sure, I completely agree. In fact, the first implementation of Cocoon
was exactly designed to avoid that mapping that you were criticizing.
This turned out to be a big design mistake for Cocoon.

Could this be the same for Turbine? I venture to say yes (expecially
after doing more research about the flowmap concept) and it would be a
shame not to listen to our experience and do the same mistake over

But I might well be wrong.

> The fact of the matter is that I'm a year behind on Scarab and would rather
> spend the time building a working app that is at least somewhat well
> designed than not building anything at all. Unfortunately, I just don't have
> that luxury.

> Good luck with your graduation.

Thanks, very appreciated.

> I look forward to the day when you have real
> work pressures on you and have to sometimes cut corners instead of write a
> research paper about each and every step you take.

Hmmm, reading between the lines, you consider me "spoiled" by the fact
that I lived in the accademic world and had the "luxury" of not having
pressure on me.

I would like to point out that this has been a choice of mine, not a
limitation of my capacities (at least, I don't consider it as such).

In case you don't remember, both the web and the internet were created
as a research concept and would have been much worse if people cut
corners instead of thinking twice and write research papers about each
and every step they made. These technologies wouldn't scale so
wonderfully as they do today.

This is a fact.

You don't like this vision? do you like pressure and production more and
consider research for wimps that can't stand pressure? Fair enough, it's
your choice, but, please, don't judge other's work on the amount of
pressure they have to face. It's unfair.
> > Jon is against mapping. It reminds me of my early choices that lead to
> > Cocoon1 reactor pattern and PI chains. Do you want to go back to that
> > spaghetti mess?
> >
> > Well, this is where Turbine is heading.
> >
> > *this* is a terrible design mistake and we know that from experience.
> Not true at all.
> P.S. If you look at the history of Cocoon, it has undergone as much, if not
> more transformation than Turbine has.

Exactly. We already made several mistakes and we would love to share our
experiences in order to avoid making other ones or avoiding others to
make the same ones.

Hope this has clarified my points to you and to the rest of the people.

Sorry again for my unfairness, didn't want to do any harm, really.

Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<>                             Friedrich Nietzsche

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