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From "Martin Rogard" <>
Subject RE: [ot] XSLT pain in the *?
Date Wed, 28 Feb 2001 10:13:32 GMT

I think you point to the right question. In my first post I deliberately
choose to sounds rude to shock and explain my frustration to not use Cocoon
2 everywhere but I like it, and plan to use it as soon as possible.

What you say is I choose to sacrifice maintainability for creativity and
It's true ! We are not a web agency and our strength is in creativity (VIBES
is a video game developer...) and for the moment It's IMHO too difficult to
create both creative and maintainable web sites with Cocoon because of the
lack of good visual XSLT tool.
But their are a lot of places where I plan to use Cocoon, this includes all
web application that will need to be available on a large number of devices
(web, phones, special programs, print, ...). In this area I think Cocoon is
the most powerful tool available and I would like to thanks all developers
for that.

In a totally other note I am wondering what is planned for Cocoon on the
management side express in the SoC document, is it now clear that Infozone
is taking care of this part or will Cocoon 2 includes management tools ?

Martin Rogard

-----Original Message-----
From: []
Sent: mardi 27 février 2001 17:29
Subject: RE: [ot] XSLT pain in the *?

It seems you have decided to sacrifice maintanability for creativity.

If your projects are short lived and your developpers don't mind changin all
the println lines when the client changes is mind about the look and feel of
the application. Then sticking to servlets is fine.

In our team we found that expressing the content in the .xml, the display
logic in the .xsp, the application logic in normal .classes, the display
style sheet in .xsl and making sure that there is a .dtd for the .xml allows
a team of developpers to work with a lot of concurency and a lot of re-use
(especially for the look&feel part).

It especially pays off when you work with junior programmers, they grasp
more easilly xml + xsp then good object oriented code (especially when it's
not documented). We are gladly moving away from servlets and our client
loves it since the cosmetic changes (about 90% of changes between each
release) is now faster, easier to deploy and has less bugs (Netscape vs IE
issues especially).


-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Rogard []
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 6:39 AM
Subject: RE: [ot] XSLT pain in the *?


XSLT is very powerful but in real world production the problem I faced is no
one want to write stylesheets:
- Developers says this is too restrictive, not a real langage and say it's
not their job.
Sometimes they agree to write an XSP Logicsheet but they are now really
angry about writing *a lot* of text (<,>) instead of just writing beautiful
OO Servlets (yup i know they don't have exactly the same role but..).
- Graphists says they don't want to open an editor, but want to stay in
Phtotoshop or Dreamweaver.

At that point we have decided to drop Cocoon because of this XSL/T problems,
I personaly thinks XSLT is really useful when you have no other choice to
use it (transform a document in an other) but not useful to create content
until Macromedia or someone else doesn't make an XSL editor for graphist.


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