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From Matt Sergeant <>
Subject Re: Comments on XSP 1.1 (long)
Date Wed, 01 Nov 2000 20:32:33 GMT
On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:

> Let's try to come up with an example:
> 1) you are asked to write a taglib that has to be nested with a number
> of taglibs that are not written by you.
> 2) suppose these other taglibs are written in XSLT+Java (no SLL or
> anything), and you don't have documentation for them (like it is today)
> What do you do?
> Like many people here can guarantee, you try to see what the rest of the
> taglibs do and try to come up with a resonable way to inline code that
> works.... after a few hundred attempts, it does what you want and you
> are happy.
> Then, the taglib grows and it has to be refactored.. new people work on
> it, people that are not used to XSLT+Java, neither to your own vision of
> "how to make a taglib". The code is refactored, rewritten, it costs more
> to refactor it than to write a new taglib from scratch.
> Result: costs grow more than linearly and saturation happens. You can't
> have more than N taglibs developped by your team and after a few years
> they become black boxes... it's easy to throw them away than to see what
> they do and how.

I totally understand all the issues, Stefano. Really I do. I just think
there's probably a better syntax out there (maybe even an XML syntax). I
know thats probably really unfair since I haven't personally put any
effort into SiLLy, so lets get the xsp list setup and hash out something

> Perl people normally don't care about code management costs: they just
> want to get their job done and it's not their fault if nobody else will
> ever be able to manage it.
> But everyone knows that software management costs are *much* more than
> the costs of creating the software at the beginning. SLL also tries to
> provide hooks to reduce taglib management costs in the long run.
> If you don't care for it, then you should use it, but like OOP teaches
> you, every moment you spend in designing an elegant and solid
> architecture is a moment you save in the future.
> Larry Wall doesn't understand why europeans care so much about code
> elegance...

I think all these statements are a bit unfair and sweeping really. Perl
people are just programmers. We care about code maintainence and elegance
just as much as the next person. Some would argue we care about elegance a
whole lot more than other languages, but lets not go there on this list.

> but he never wrote an operating system in Perl :)

You've not heard of PerlOS then? Seriously, there is an OS written in
Perl, providing most Unix features. Of course its not exactly fast - it
was just done for fun and as a proof of concept.


    /||    ** Director and CTO **
   //||    ** Ltd   **  ** XML Application Serving **
  // ||    ** **  ** XSLT, XPathScript, XSP  **
 // \\| // **     Personal Web Site:     **
    //  \\

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