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From Stefano Mazzocchi <>
Subject Re: Comments on XSP 1.1 (long)
Date Wed, 01 Nov 2000 21:15:10 GMT
Matt Sergeant wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Nov 2000, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> > Let's try to come up with an example:
> >
> > 1) you are asked to write a taglib that has to be nested with a number
> > of taglibs that are not written by you.
> >
> > 2) suppose these other taglibs are written in XSLT+Java (no SLL or
> > anything), and you don't have documentation for them (like it is today)
> >
> > What do you do?
> >
> > Like many people here can guarantee, you try to see what the rest of the
> > taglibs do and try to come up with a resonable way to inline code that
> > works.... after a few hundred attempts, it does what you want and you
> > are happy.
> >
> > Then, the taglib grows and it has to be refactored.. new people work on
> > it, people that are not used to XSLT+Java, neither to your own vision of
> > "how to make a taglib". The code is refactored, rewritten, it costs more
> > to refactor it than to write a new taglib from scratch.
> >
> > Result: costs grow more than linearly and saturation happens. You can't
> > have more than N taglibs developped by your team and after a few years
> > they become black boxes... it's easy to throw them away than to see what
> > they do and how.
> I totally understand all the issues, Stefano. Really I do. I just think
> there's probably a better syntax out there (maybe even an XML syntax). I
> know thats probably really unfair since I haven't personally put any
> effort into SiLLy, so lets get the xsp list setup and hash out something
> simpler.

Ok, great, if only I can find a damn person that knows how to set up a
mail list around here, damn it!
> > Perl people normally don't care about code management costs: they just
> > want to get their job done and it's not their fault if nobody else will
> > ever be able to manage it.
> >
> > But everyone knows that software management costs are *much* more than
> > the costs of creating the software at the beginning. SLL also tries to
> > provide hooks to reduce taglib management costs in the long run.
> >
> > If you don't care for it, then you should use it, but like OOP teaches
> > you, every moment you spend in designing an elegant and solid
> > architecture is a moment you save in the future.
> >
> > Larry Wall doesn't understand why europeans care so much about code
> > elegance...
> I think all these statements are a bit unfair and sweeping really. Perl
> people are just programmers. We care about code maintainence and elegance
> just as much as the next person. Some would argue we care about elegance a
> whole lot more than other languages, but lets not go there on this list.

In "", Larry Wall said:
>> "Users care about elegance."  No, they care about getting their job
>> done.  For some reason lots of languages that come out of Europe have
>> this thing about elegance that I don't quite get.  Obviously.

Let's see how you get out of this :)

> > but he never wrote an operating system in Perl :)
> You've not heard of PerlOS then? Seriously, there is an OS written in
> Perl, providing most Unix features. Of course its not exactly fast - it
> was just done for fun and as a proof of concept.

does "providing most Unix features" include support for a gazillion
device drivers and all that stuff? I don't think so.

Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<>                             Friedrich Nietzsche

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