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From Joel Hawkins <jhawk...@anchorsilk.com>
Subject RE: Comments on XSP 1.1 (long)
Date Tue, 31 Oct 2000 18:40:41 GMT
I think the fundamental question here is who is the SiLLy's intended
audience? If it is truly programmers, then I concur with Paulo and Matt.
However, if SiLLy is really being built as infrastructure for a whiz-bang
direct-manipulation based tool, then one wouldn't expect the results to be
palatable to a programmer. There are tons (well, maybe pounds) of assembler
programmers who wouldn't dream of using a 'C' compiler because of the
(relatively) atrocious code they emit. 

My hope is that SiLLy will emerge as a pattern language, which will capture
cocoon application best practices and provide a higher level of abstraction
than java. Do that and the world will beat a path to your door.

	Cheers

-----Original Message-----
From: Paulo Gaspar [mailto:paulo.gaspar@krankikom.de]
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 1:22 PM
To: cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org
Subject: RE: Comments on XSP 1.1 (long)


I think Matt is right.

I believe it makes more sense to let programmers use their own language
(or at least an existing language) when possible, and it looks possible
here.


<TinyFlameForMatt>
Of course that he would better defend his POV prsenting is little sample
in a REAL language like Java instead of (argh!) Perl. =;o)
</TinyFlameForMatt>

(Sorry! Couldn't resist!)


Have fun,
Paulo

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matt Sergeant [mailto:matt@sergeant.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2000 18:23
>
> On Tue, 31 Oct 2000, Ricardo Rocha wrote:
>
> > Oops! Sorry guys, I mistakenly hit the "send" button before the
> > message was complete. Here I go again...
> >
> > *** Adding a logicsheet language (SiLLy, Simple Logicsheet Language) ***
>
> Maybe I'm missing something...
>
> SiLLy is for logicsheet/taglib authors. These people are programmers. I
> don't really see how it makes sense to ask them to work in XML for
> defining their API. Logic is language dependant (no matter how you turn it
> around), so why not let them use their language to define these things? I
> guess I just don't see the benefit between what you have below, and the
> following XPathScript logicsheet which does almost the same thing but in
> Perl:
>
> <%
> set_namespace( util => 'uri' );
> use Time::Object;
> $t->{'util:system-time'}{testcode} = sub {
> 	my ($node, $t) = @_;
> 	$t->{pre} = '<xsp:expr>localtime->strftime(' .
> 		$node->getAttribute('format') .
> 		')</xsp:expr>';
> 	return 1;
> };
> %>
>
> (don't flame me about the syntax, I know some of you hate Perl, but the
> point is that people like this - its very programmer friendly, it fits
> their world)
>
> I'm honestly not buying that you're going to get lots of *programmers*
> jumping up and down about SiLLy...
>
> Another thing I'd like to see is a CORBA taglib in both Cocoon and AxKit,
> so we can simply go:
>
> <corba:send-email/>
>
> Or whatever. Now that would be truly language independant, and wouldn't
> require programmers working with logicsheets, which is starting to look
> messy.
>
> --
> <Matt/>

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