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From "David Duddleston" <>
Subject RE: Cocoon2 Design
Date Fri, 02 Jun 2000 17:43:18 GMT
> I can't talk for JetSpeed, Turbine or this Craig's new "Struts" since I
> don't have one of my million feet in there :) but Avalon, Cocoon and
> James all share the same ideas and integrating them would be "piece of
> cake".
> And you can quote me on that any time you want.

I see that they share a lot of the same interfaces, abstract classes and
basic structure. This is a great start for intergration. One thing, I think
there might be a missconception that Avalon is a framework for builder
Servers and not a good fit for Web Applications. I have seen this stated by
others, but after looking at Avalon and don't see why it can't be used for a
starting point to building Web Applications. To be honest, I don't know the
code very well, so maybe I missed something.

> Well, I can't tell you "when" but the design issues involved are simply
> too big... the problem with Avalon is that it's a meta-framework. It's
> more abstract than people can normally get.
> Many said to me: they seem lotsa good ideas, but what does it mean for
> my code?

Right, it is difficult to grasp the concept of something that is just a pure
framework. As in a framework that is just a set of interfaces, abstract
classes and maybe some implementations, unlike a project like Cocoon that is
both a framework and implementation. Still being somewhat new to OO
programming and programming in general, I have a difficult time myself
understanding how to put together a good framework/design pattern.

> The very final goal (probably in 2010 or something :) is something like
> this
>          +-> Cocoon
>          |
>  Avalon -+-> Tomcat
>          |
>          +-> James
>          |
>          +-> ???
> where you can make a web application (tomcat) with XML (cocoon) that
> generates a SVG graph of the number of mails (James) sent to your
> mailing list on a daily basis.
> Also, creating each server as a collection of components that can be
> reused as they are (logger, object store, thread manager, database pool,
> authentication store, XML parser, XSLT transformer, RDF analyzer,
> etc....) by the other servers.
> All running on the same JVM or on different instances, all will the
> ability to "add" your components just as easily, and to extend each
> server functionality with servlets, mailets or Cocoon pipeline
> components, war files, JSP and what else you want to add.
> Integration is the goal.

All of the above would be excellent. I hope it comes sooner than later. What
is the opinion of the Tomcat team using Avalon as a base framework?

> > I think there is some happy middle ground here that can be
> achieved, but it
> > would take several highly motivated people and some open minds by those
> > leading the various projects to make it happen.
> I'm highly motivated and I'm sure any of you is, as well.

You are highly motivated, have excellent ideas, open minded and most
important... get big time respect around here. I'm glad you are behind

> It's only a matter of pushing for the right direction and have patience.

I seems like a possible task, especialy with projects like Avalon designed
for this specific goal and people like you pushing for it. The hardest part
is getting to know all the projects well enough to know how to do it.

Another good start would be to share more and more of the same
utility/services classes as well. This has already begun, just take it a
little further when ever possilbe. It would be easy to implement Turbines
services wrapper into Cocoon. Actualy there are lots of little things that
can be done at this point. Hopefuly people will continue to push and these
threads on intergrating JetSpeed/Turbine/Cocoon/Avalon... won't die out in a
day or so. BTW, I know Micheal Nash (Expresso framework) is all for sharing
code and has changed the license of Expresso to Apache, so his is another
possible player here. One tricky area that I have found when trying to
intergrate projects is dealing with the persistance layer. In other words,
the code is so closely bound to the persistance layer that it is difficult
to pluck it out and or share it with other projects with a different
persistance layer without creating a big mess. I don't know how feasable it
would be to get projects to share the same perstance layer. Something like
Castor perhaps might be the most flexible. Who knows.


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