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From Stefano Mazzocchi <stef...@apache.org>
Subject Re: Is Apache Dead?
Date Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:05:05 GMT
Neeme Praks wrote:
> 
> A little epilogue to this thread...
> 
> Probably people are not following the developments going on in JBoss-dev
> lists, so I send in here some interesting posts that further reflect the
> mentality (or confusion, or...) there...
> 
> In the end however... the discussion still boils down to the fact that
> they want _recognition_ for their work (natural, of course) and isn't
> that what Apache "umbrella" would offer?

No. Not exactly. Read my comments below.
 
> Neeme
> (Just trying to understand the dynamics of open source better...)

It's like "trying to understand the dynamics of human beings"... a very
hard thing.
 
> > Now I'm confused.
> >
> > <std-disclaimer type="this is not the opinion of my employer.. etc.">
> >
> > There's a new ASP around called ejip.net. The interesting part is that
> > they are going to use jBoss as server. Now, Telkel (where I and Marc
> > work) is also going to provide an ASP service which you all can use to
> > deploy your apps on the web. But instead of just using stuff from
> > someone else we actually do things to make it, jBoss that is, happen.
> > AFAIK ejip.net does not have anyone actively helping out here.
> >
> > So, one interesting question is: is it fair for someone like them to
> > take advantage of jBoss - to build their core services on top of - and
> > not give anything back? In my humble opinion, no. Of course not.

:)

> > Everyone who is working on jBoss currently does so because they
> > understand that the only way to get this piece of software to be the
> > best it can be is to work together towards the common goal of
> > making it
> > the best thing since sliced bread. By using it without helping the
> > community that is putting hard work into it to make this happen is to
> > say "hey cool stuff, sure we'll use it! but we're not gonna help ya
> > build it 'cause we're too busy doing proprietary stuff around
> > it". IMHO
> > of course. Perfectly legal, but not very good manners.

The GNU community is very worried about this trend of ASP/ISP using GNU
stuff and extending it without giving anything back, even if perfectly
legal.

The Apache community is not.

why? because it all boils down to this: contribution comes from very
different things.

Example: www.yahoo.com is based on Apache, www.starwars.com is based on
JServ, www.eurofootball.com is based on Cocoon.

Are they giving any code back? not that I know (sorry, Mike, but that's
reality so far)

Are they contributing? yes, by the very same fact that you are
impressed.

The contribution of eurofootball.com to the Cocoon community is probably
more important of any code, as much as ISPs providing Cocoon hosting
capabilities.

If the JBoss folks believe that code is the only type of contribution to
their cause, no wonder they consider software development as a war.

On the other hand, I understand that I would not be pleased if my
employee was italianfootball.com, but then again, I would not have
choosen to do open source if it was that case.

> > I would love to hear ejip.net's opinion about this. I'm sure I have
> > missed something. It can't be this bad, right?
> >
> > It's not that I don't like competition, I just don't like joyriders.

I totally agree with him here. Code is not the only contribution, but a
contribution _must_ take place in order for the collaboration to remain
friendly.

But I even venture to say that "become unfriendly to the community that
creates the software you build your business on top of" is a _very_
dangerous thing to do. Extremely unwise from all points of view.

Why? well, the license allows you to do whatever you want, but suppose
that people start ignoring your help requests? deny subscriptions?
slashdot the story? and so forth.

Microsoft played bully and we know what happened.

RedHat might do the very same mistake.

While IBM and Sun follow the opposite path, understanding that a
friendly community is an incredible advantage to their business sanity.

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<stefano@apache.org>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
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