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From Stefano Mazzocchi <>
Subject Re: [RT] i18n in Cocoon and language independent semantic contexts
Date Tue, 13 Jun 2000 11:09:21 GMT
Paul Lamb wrote:
> > Paul Lamb wrote:
> > >
> > > BTW, Stephano, what's your native language?
> >
> > Oh, gee, this is a lost cause... my name is Stefano, pronounced as
> > "Stéh-fan-o" NOT "Ste-phà-no", grrrr
> >
> Looks like yesterday wasn't a good day for spelling your name, as I
> destroyed your first name and someone else the last. I do apologize, I have
> a good friend here who's name is Stephan, who is often close enough nearby
> to physically knock me up-side the head when I get it wrong.

> [snip]
> > >
> > > Or, "How can we design both the sitemap and the engine to expect
> > > evolutionary changes? What about revolutionary ones?"
> >
> > Ouch, touched a nerve here.
> Didn't mean to, you've been asking these types of questions a lot lately,
> and I think it's good thing. 

Oh, totally. But I have no vision on what could happen on this.... too
many variables around.

> I've been in the process of moving two sites to
> their third generation of implementation and I really remember thinking
> about this during the last set of changes. But now it seems that I either
> really got it right or I really got it wrong, not much in between.

> [snip]
> > What's the best way to integrate it? Apache should become a native
> > version of Cocoon? Should Tomcat? Should Catalina?
> >
> > I have no idea, but I'm doing something.
> >
> > I do plan to use Catalina-specific hooks when it becomes mainstream.
> > (Catalina is the codename for what many believe it will be Tomcat 4.0)
> > This would allow us to use sitemap.xml "instead" of web.xml for
> > cocoon-based applications.
> >
> [snip]
> > > The first thought that comes to
> > mind here, is
> > > something like a valve pattern, like Craig's done with catalina.
> >
> > Exactly.
> This brings up one of the things I like about catalina and has influenced my
> thoughts on cocoon2 lately. Catalina on one hand provides a very clean
> implementation of a webserver/serlvet engine; but on the other provides a
> very clean path to replace, extend and/or enhance existing pieces of it.
> Granted, 80% of those downloading it, will never add a single line of code
> to catalina itself; but for the 20% that need to, it is really great to work
> with.

I agree.
> My thoughts on the sitemap are the same way. It would be best to create a
> map that served 80% of those downloading it, in an easy and direct manner.
> But, it should also allow others enought rope to hang themselves properly.

I've learned during the years that no matter how you try to suggest
things, the best way for people to learn is to give them the rope and
watch them hang themselves with it.... then save them before they die :)

This changes the perspective a lot, but, just like for kids, saying
"don't! it's dangerous" it's just another way of increasing their
curiosity about that rope :)

[Note: I was the first one to do that rope hanging stuff]
> [snip]
> > Hmmm, this will create pain in Cocoon users that need to choose what
> > sitemap schema to use before having played with the technology.
> >
> > I think of this more as a "last resort" type of thing and mainly for
> > ourselfs developers: to simplify development of the sitemap
> > interpreter.
> >
> While I like the idea that there may be multiple sitemap implementations, I
> _VERY_ much agree that there needs to be a _SINGLE_ standard default one.
> This isn't much different than what we talked about above with Catalina.
> Catalina will distribute based around a web.xml for the forseeable future;
> but due to its design, I could create a version that loads sitemap.xml using
> my code instead by changing one line in server.xml.

Good point.
> This also brings up another point. Doesn't this mean that we're now going to
> have both a cocoon.xconf and sitemap.xml? Aren't we going to need a way to
> get the parts of the engine initialized before loading the sitemap.

Another good point.
> This also comes up, because it seems from the really basic questions that
> come thru the list that it might be useful to check during our servlet init
> function to make certain that specific jars are available and their version
> info--xerces provides this, I'm not sure about xalan. As well as a basic
> check that xerces is loaded before parser.jar. I'd even be willing to write
> this for both cocoon2 and cocoon1.

No, this will be handled directly by Avalon with its block versioning
system and special classloader.

[note: Catalina was recently wrapped by some Avalon-aware code, as well
as Slide, the things are finally converging]

Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
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