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From Stefano Mazzocchi <>
Subject Re: Infozone
Date Sat, 10 Jun 2000 10:46:17 GMT
Eric van der Vlist wrote:
> burtonator wrote:
> >
> > The reason I think this applies to the Java/Server-side world is that if
> > you have a decent project, you should bring it under the ASF.  In the
> > future most projects will be like this.  There are certain exceptions of
> > course.  I would like to see Lucene and EJBoss under the ASF.
> If you allow the view of an outside observer, I'd like to disagree here
> ;=) ...
> I think monopolies are as bad for open source as they are for
> "traditional" economies.

Sure. But there is a big difference (see below)

> I don't want to criticize any of the Apache projects for which I have
> great respect, but the fact that <> is that much more
> visible than <> represents a risk for open
> source.

I disagree.
> If <> wanted to start a new Cocoon framework, it
> would have to be technically so much better than that
> it's almost killing any possibility of competition.

No, it would just need to be "better". Period. Or collaborate with us to
make what's already available better.

Is having just one Linux kernel a bad thing? C'mon! Is Apache hurting
the web because it's wasting the opensource competition? rather the
> At the end of the day, I don't think it will be beneficial to the open
> source community if too many projects can "win" without having to be the
> best technically...

this cannot possibly happen. Open source is based on developers energy
and this energy is created by good ideas, not brands.

What we want to do is _optimize_ this energy usage and catalize it's
community for projects that technically deserve to be inside, but
because of their ideas.

Sure, this would create friction for others that "stay out" either
because not contacted or rejected by the PMC. This will happen,
unfortunately, but if the project is good and we are wrong, open source
dynamics (otherwise named "open software darwinism") will prove us

It may also happen that Apache will loose its brand because of bad
choices, this is why we have such a strong formal process for projects
management, but such an open position for the people involved.

Also, being very open, it never happened that an apache project was
forked, nor that you had to rewrite an apache project with another

Apache doesn't want to be an open source monopoly, but a place were
people get together and exchange ideas on how to do things.

Is Cocoon driven by me only? no. I have strong influence and I admit
that, but I try to be open to every suggestion and Cocoon2 is the
evidence of how many mistakes I did in my initial design.

Apache doesn't -waste- competition, it tries to inglobate it.

Is this bad? I don't think so. It's fairly easy to get commit access and
become a project maintainter or even a project leader around here, you
just have to want it badly. Many people around here had the first
experience of open source and became very active in shaping this

Are we doing something wrong that deserves a fork? cool, let's discuss
it. Do you think you have superior technical solutions? why don't you
tell us, we'll give you all the credits you deserve for that.

Apache is protecting individuals and holding copyrights and credits for
them. What you did around here is carved in stone. In the future, many
companies will try to patent ideas that were invented or first exposed
in this project. But we have a way to fight them because of Apache

If we were a closed society, you'd be totally right: Apache would be
just another monopoly.

But we are not. And this is what makes the difference.

Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
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