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From Stefano Mazzocchi <>
Subject Re: Cocoon2 Design
Date Fri, 02 Jun 2000 14:30:36 GMT
Neeme Praks wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Stefano Mazzocchi []
> > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 8:19 PM
> >
> >  <components>
> >   ...
> >   <tester type="user" class="org.apache.cocoon.tester.UserTester">
> >    <param name="database-url" value="...."/>
> >    <param name="database-password" value="...."/>
> >    ...
> >   </tester>
> >  </components>
> >
> >  <processing uri="/bugs/home">
> >   <if test="user is authorized">
> >    <generator type="xsp" src:local="./xsp/home.xsp"/>
> >   </if>
> >   <else>
> >    <generator type="xsp" src:local="./xsp/login-form.xsp"/>
> >   </else>
> >   <filter type="xslt" src:local="./styles/simple2html.xsl"/>
> >   <serializer type="html"/>
> >  </process>
> Ok, I see what you mean.
> My initial concern was that I cannot use sitemap to alter the processing
> flow of Cocoon dynamically at run-time. Well, I see that this is
> actually not an issue. By combining sitemap, redirects and referrals, it
> is possible to almost duplicate the functionality found in Turbine. It
> is not an exact match, but it is enough for me at least.
> Actually, how well is supported the "referral" feature: together with
> the POST data the browser also sends the URL of the original page
> (poster)?

You mean to do sessions? Sorry, I need a better example here to
understand what you mean.
> > isn't the "tester" component similar to a Turbine action?
> >
> > But not equal because it includes logic that "tests" the state, the
> > action concern is given to the sitemap.
> yep, it is similar... and separated in a better way, IMO...
> > > ;-)
> > > And this is almost the target we are aiming at... but I
> > think it will be
> > > easier just to take parts of Turbine and integrate them to
> > Cocoon that
> > > to rewrite whole Turbine into XTurbine (and the end result
> > would still
> > > be even bigger hack than now).
> >
> > I totally agree. But I don't think Jon would like that :)
> Probably not... but I think there will still be some space for Turbine
> under the sun ;-) 

Never said the opposite.

> Although I hate to see so much effort and talent being
> put into a project that is "inferior", instead of putting it into Cocoon
> that is the future.

This is unfair. Turbine is "not inferior" by design, I know Jon enough
to think Turbine has great potential. He was one of the first projects
to outline the problems in web-app development and respond by creating a
framework for that.

Cocoon and Turbine and incredibly similar from a meta-programming
perspective. But, like Jon once said, it's good to try radically
different technical approaches to the same problems.

Cocoon is more complex and has a more ambitious goal. Turbine is more
focused but still more powerful than Cocoon in many areas.

Open source dynamics act as powerful convergence forces and nor Jon's
nor my ego are powerful enough to stop that. James Davidson coined a
wonderful term for that: "software darwinism", where the OSS community
not supporting a project playes the role of death for biological

Evaluating a project as "inferior" goes against "software darwinism",
much like you can't possibly engineer a new biological organism and
"know" what this will do out in real-life.

"Open development" is a huge genetic algorithm. And this is why it's
more powerful than commercial software: it adapts faster to enviornment
changes. "Death is the essence of life" after all, even for open

Please, let's try to be more openminded than that.
> > In case it's not, I probably misunderstood completely Turbine actions
> > and if it is so, please, tell me :) (I'm never used Turbine directly)
> Yep, that helped a lot to make the vision about Cocoon2 in my head much
> clearer.

That's good.

Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
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