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From Stefano Mazzocchi <>
Subject Re: [cocoon 2] removing bottenecks
Date Tue, 23 May 2000 09:34:01 GMT
Jonathan Stimmel wrote:
> On Mon, May 22, 2000 at 04:26:04PM +0200, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> > Even if I don't have much time, I volunteer for that role, trying to
> > coordinate effort and provide substantial background for this project to
> > _happen_.
> Hmmm... I had been assuming you already had this role...

No. I have always been and will remain project coordinator for the main
branch. When the second branch was created, I proposed Pierpaolo as a
project coordinator for the xml-cocoon2 branch since he wrote most of it
and knows it better and he accepted and he was elected by this mail

So, even if everybody else that have commit access could have done
bugfixes and enhancements, we were waiting for "ok, Pier will do it"...
but never did.

> > This would automatically close down the Cocoon 1.x branch, which will
> > remain there just and only for bugfixes, but nothing else will added to
> > that branch or backported from Cocoon2.
> I would think that this is almost a given when development begins
> on a major revision to a piece of software.

Yes, but nothing is obvious enough for mail lists :)

> > But the project lacks coordination and I see forking frictions
> > developping in the community, along with higher expectance.
> >
> >  [...]
> >
> > and I hope you all come and give us hands.
> I'd love to, but how can I contribute when I don't know what needs to
> be done? 

Good point. Don't worry, as soon as we remove the dust, the TODO list
will be very juicy.

> According to todo.xml, the only thing that needs to be done is
> "make sure everything works". If that's the only thing left to be
> done, cocoon2 should  be preparing for a final release ;) I had thought
> about combing through the bug database and fixing some more "menial"
> problems, but that's obviously not an option until it's brought back
> online.

Yep. Unfortunately, knowing the "speed" of the ASF member list about
security issues, this won't happen soon.
> <dons flame-resistant garment>
> I love the direction that cocoon2 seems to be taking, but I'm becoming
> a little disillusioned with it. From the outside, it seems to have a
> very clear direction, but when I look under the hood I become frustrated.
> Frequently I find myself asking, "Why was it done this way?", with nary
> a comment for explaination. (Yes, I realise that this is part of the role
> of the mailing list, but shouldn't it be more concerned with *making*
> design decisions, rather than reiterating them?). Overall, I'm left with
> the feeling that I'm looking at a collection of hacks, rather than an
> organized software project.
> <reverts to street clothes>

Let me reply to this: the impression you get from "under the hood" is
because what is contained into the CVS branch "is" an hacked up software
that took a week-end to write.

Cocoon2 = clean design + hacked code
Cocooo1 = clean code + hacked design

Now, if you remove all the code in Cocoon2 and look at the package
structure and interfaces, you'll see these are not hacks at all! It took
us months of resoning on this list to smooth the patterns that go well
with XML generation on the server side.

While other open source projects _clone_ existing commercial software
and find the design patterns already prepared for them, we have to
invent and research both. Code and design.

The complexity and time required to do proper desing must _not_ be
underestimated. Expecially when this project is _clearly_ leading the
world's effort for XML web publishing and one of the very first example
of reasonable integration of W3C specifications.

I totally agree that xml-cocoon2 doesn't look like an organized software
project. Mainly because you're right: there is no organization at all.
We failed to provide it.

And since I understand this, I'm going to do something to change it.
> > and let's get things done, damn it, instead of waiting on out butts
> > forever.
> Agreed! I know I haven't done much to advance cocoon so far (lessee...
> one patch to a minor bug in cocoon1 ;^), but I promise to post a
> "documentation cleanup and enhancements" patch to DirectoryGenerator
> within a couple days. Hey, it's not much, but at least it'll be
> *something* =)

Hey, even if you go a long way, every step is a small one compared to
the total distance. ;-)

Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
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