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From Stefano Mazzocchi <>
Subject Re: cocoon2 & webserver ponderings
Date Fri, 14 Apr 2000 11:47:32 GMT
Paul Lamb wrote:
> I'm in the death march to finish a project right now and my client wants to
> talk to me tomorrow about their next project, a new internet search
> engine--something like google, only better. So to bring some reality back to
> the picture, I've found this ray of hope thinking about the things I want to
> do with cocoon2.
> After checking out cocoon2, I really began thinking about how interesting it
> would be to integrate the sitemap concept directly with a java based
> webserver. For that matter you'd probably also look at integrating the
> caching system too.
> Has anyone else thought about this? I've been using the w3c Jigsaw for
> sometime now, and the changes to it to support this wouldn't be
> overwhelming, and once catalina becomes a reality then you could integrate
> it and jasper.

I knew this had to come out one day or another....

I must confess that I've been secretly concerned about the evolution of
this project in case that our paradigms show enough acceptance since, at
least, 6 months (you know I look ahead). I believe that Cocoon2 will
prove to be _the_way_ of doing web publishing. No question about that.

Cocoon3 will prove to be _the_way_ of doing web (probably integrated
with Tomcat directly), so both publishing and web applications (we'll
use Servlet 2.2 WAR archives to prove that using XSP instead of JSP)

Cocoon4 might well turn out to be..., well, Apache. :)

Yes, people, while Cocoon1 is clearly a servlet, Cocoon2 is more: is a
serving subsystem. You connect Cocoon2 to a URI space and let the
sitemap handle everything from there. But you still have to pass thru
web server, servlet engine and cocoon engine everytime you want to serve
your /index. A clear pain in the ass.

The patterns here are clear: the sitemap should be part of http serving

So, while Cocoon2 will remain a servlet (for obvious reasons), Cocoon3
and Catalina could integrate to create... Cataloon :) an http serving
system that is sitemap based for everything. Maybe Servlets 2.3 will
integrate our proposal of SAX output so we might well use regular
servlets as generators. At this point, is way to early to tell.

Anyway, while we speak, the Apache newhttpd group is working at
designing the architecure for Apache 2.1, which is supposed to implement
(finally!) layered I/O. This means that you can post-process the output
of one apache module with another one. Unfortunately, they have no
notion of SAX events so the whole problem of servlet chaining is back

In October, right before the conference, we hope to have an ASF-wide
hackaton fest where I will outline the needs for a XML-oriented serving
architecture... many new-httpd people simply don't have enough XML
experience to understand those issues right away, of, if they do (Dirk,
Ben) they are not directly involved in any coding.

But this might be fortunate for us... why? Well, we are at least 6
months ahead of out time, and their delay allows us to gain more
experience. If we had layered I/O with SAX support, well, there would be
no need for Cocoon anymore :) Just write mod_java, mod_xml, mod_xslt and
you're done.

I suspect this is going to happen sooner or later... but I hope this
happens only when we reached our end and there is no more research to
do. Then I can happily abandon the project and let the main httpd people
inherit our pure research and create Apache 3.0 around it.

But maybe is never going to happen: maybe Tomcat will prove better to
manage/extend and Apache 3.0 will be Java written... who knows.

Anyway, I totally agree that Cocoon2 is more than a servlet.

But I will be afraid of merging Cocoon and Tomcat, and also afraid of
integrating direct HTTP-serving capabilities in Cocoon (thus creating a

I think everything depends on the outcome of Servlet 2.3.

And for what I've seen right now... well, by the time the spec is final,
we will have already conquered the world :)

Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
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