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From Stefano Mazzocchi <>
Subject Re: [RT] "To Cocoon2 and beyond" :)
Date Mon, 28 Feb 2000 16:20:56 GMT
"Kevin A. Burton" wrote:
> Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> <snip>
> > 1) DirectoryProducer
> <snip>
> > Don't you hate "http:/" looks so out of place?
> > Wouldn't it be nice to have a common look and feel throughout the entire
> > web site? Well, this will do it.
> Yes.  Hopefully one day Apache will just spit out XML in a Directory
> Markup that the browser will then interpret to its own internal
> representation.  Has anyone tried Mozilla with a local file system?  It
> is pretty cool and uses DHTML to do it's browsing.

I'll have to download the latest milestone then :)
> I am also impressed with how it handles non-html markup like RSS (ie
> just like Jetspeed).

Same as above.
> > 2) Enterprise taglibs for XSP
> <snip>
> > now, _THAT_ is something useful... not the SQL crap we have to embed
> > into our logic.
> Simple.  Don't do it :).  Check out something like Castor that will take
> an XML Schema and generate code for you to think of XML or a DB as an
> object and not in *flat* SQL.  I think this is *big!

Well, Keith and I have different visions about this but one thing I
don't like about this approach is the requirement to generate code out
of a schema.... anyway I do agree with you that flat SQL is not
expressive enough for our needs.

> > Sure, if you already have relational data and you want
> > something out of it, use donald's sql taglib and you'll be set for
> > life... but like if you want to use your DBMS for store ACID
> > transactions out of your pages... hmmmm, sql is expensive thing to do
> > and, in my opinion, too different from the highly object-oriented Cocoon
> > world.
> Yes.  But it is very stable.  I personally like SQL but could see it
> some day being replaced by XQL/XML.  In fact I headed up a project at my
> last company to write an XQL/XML head on top of JDBC so that you can
> just think of Oracle as an XML producer. :)

Oracle already has something like that (Steve, am I wrong?) but I'm not
sure I want to do something like this.... I don't know, but all this
xml-data-binding thing seems to me too over-hyped.

Last year was "application server" this year is "B2B with XML".

Please, don't nominate either two on this list or I'll blow you way :)

> <snip>
> > 5) RDF+RSS/CDF support.
> >
> > Like for SOAP, the Cocoon architecture is XML-schema-neutral from the
> > ground up so you can do whatever you want with all the schema you wants.
> > But the RDF+RSS/CDF couple is _very_ interesting (see the JetSpeed
> > project).
> CDF is dead BTW/IMO.  OCS ( is the way to
> go.  BTW Jetspeed has support for RSS (yes... both versions) and OCS.
> Currently I have about 550 (and possibly 3 times that) channels via one
> OCS feed :)

I'll take a look at that.
> > A breif explaination:
> >
> > RDF stands for Resource Description Framework and it's a W3C
> > Recommendation issued three days ago over more than 2 years of work!!!
> > RDF is one of the oldest XML research projects and, let me tell you, one
> > of the most brilliant.
> +1 RDF rocks!

yep. RDF id just like XML and namespaces: you read the spec and you go
"so what?", then you read it again and you go "so what? I don't get all
this madness around it"... then one day you see the problem and all the
pieces come together.... BANG!!! There it is!!! :)
> > RDF is not even a language, but a framework, a namespace that should be
> > intermixed with your own namespaces (whatever you want, even XHTML) to
> > specify some information _about_ the content.
> >
> > things like "document abstract, key words, authors" and the like should
> > be indicated with the proper elements, but some RDF meaning should be
> > added to allow, say, indexers or crawlers to retrieve information about
> > them.
> >
> > RDF specifies "metadata", that is "data about data". Just like XML is a
> > "meta-language", a "language for languages".
> >
> > RSS is Netscape's "Rich Site Summary" and CDF is Microsoft's "Channel
> > Description Format".
> >
> > Both do the same thing: create sort of simple indexing about the site
> > they refer to. For example, let's look at the Mozilla automatic RSS file
> > (
> >
> > <?xml version="1.0"?>
> > <rdf:RDF
> >  xmlns:rdf=""
> >  xmlns="">
> > <channel>
> >  <title>Mozilla Dot Org</title>
> >  <description>the website</description>
> >  <link></link>
> > </channel>
> >
> > <item>
> >  <title>XPInstall Newsgroup</title>
> >  <link></link>
> > </item>
> >
> > <item>
> >  <title>Open Source PKI Code Released</title>
> >
> > <link></link>
> > </item>
> > </rdf:RDF>
> CDF is basically only a pointer to the original content.  It specifies
> things like refresh rate, etc.  It is still just HTML 4.0 so is broken.

CDF was designed for push technology. Oh, yes, before "application
server" there was "push technology"... same crap. You want push? watch
TV and wait for what you like to come out. C'mon: the internet is all
about request/response. I want something, give it to me _NOW_
> RSS is the way to go.

RSS is not about pushing, is about indexing. So instead of having a huge
page you have a small list of options that you choose if you want. Or,
if you don't, they don't get in your way (like push does).
> <snip>
> >  b) generate the RSS info out of pages contained inside out of RDF
> > metainformation.
> That is interesting.  Once XHTML takes off this would be a great way for
> obtaining... Metainfo (go figure  :) about HTML pages.  Mozilla could
> take advantage of this by a Properties dialog box :).  YES!
> <snip>
> --
> Kevin A Burton
> Message to SUN:  "Open Source Java!"
> "For evil to win is for good men to do nothing."

Stefano Mazzocchi      One must still have chaos in oneself to be
                          able to give birth to a dancing star.
<>                             Friedrich Nietzsche
 Come to the first official Apache Software Foundation Conference!  
------------------------- http://ApacheCon.Com ---------------------

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