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From Wido den Hollander <w...@widodh.nl>
Subject Re: Eliminating Support for Ubuntu 12.04
Date Wed, 24 Aug 2016 05:59:07 GMT

> Op 24 augustus 2016 om 7:47 schreef Makrand <makrandsanap@gmail.com>:
> 
> 
> Guys,
> 
> I am not sure on overall developer talk, but let me understand something
> here.
> 
> Bit about setup:-
> So, at my new work place, we already have 5 zones (each zone with its own
> management server) with management node running on Ubuntu 12.04. ACS 4.4.2
> and XENserver 6.2.  It was setup by someone who isn't working here anymore.
> There are some internal issues (Technical and Non-technical) with whole
> setup and hence we don't have any immediate plans of upgrading 12.04 to
> forward one or even cloudstack for that matter.
> 
> So If I get it correctly and you guys drop support for 12.04, say in 4.10,
> then I can only upgrade to 4.9.x any time in future. Is that it?
> 
> Or If I decide to to upgrade to 4.10, then I should get my Ubuntu to 14.04
> or higher and then cloud stack?
> 

Yes, indeed. Those systems would need to go to 14.04 but preferably 16.04 by then.

Wido

> 
> 
> --
> Best,
> Makrand
> 
> 
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2016 at 10:08 AM, John Burwell <john.burwell@shapeblue.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > Wido,
> >
> > My only issue is dropping for any distro between patch releases.  If
> > someone is running 4.9.0.0 on Ubuntu 12.04, and they need to update to
> > 4.9.1.0+ (e.g. to get a CVE fix), they will be stranded.  This failure
> > seems to fail the Law of Least Surprise.  While I recognize that it is
> > unlikely that we have people running 4.9 on 12.04, it is impossible to be
> > certain.  Therefore, I vote to play it safe, and continue to support it in
> > 4.9 release branch.
> >
> > For master (i.e. 4.10.0.0), Wido makes a strong case for dropping Ubuntu
> > 12.04.  If any users are using Ubuntu 12.04 when 4.10.0 is released, they
> > would have a supported release well past the April 2017 EOL since 4.9 is an
> > LTS release.  Therefore, removing Ubuntu 12.04 support from 4.10.0.0 seems
> > like a Good Thing (tm) in terms of simplifying the code and testing matrix.
> >
> > Can everyone accept that the 4.9 release branch will be the last to
> > support Ubuntu 12.04?  If so, we can repoint the PR and merge it.
> >
> > In terms of Ubuntu 16.04 support, ideally we would support it in
> > 4.9.1.0+.  However, if I understand Wido correctly, supporting Ubuntu 12.04
> > and 16.04 in the same branch is very difficult or impossible.  Am I correct
> > in my understanding?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -John
> >
> > >
> > john.burwell@shapeblue.com
> > www.shapeblue.com
> > 53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, London VA WC2N 4HSUK
> > @shapeblue
> >
> >
> >
> > On Aug 23, 2016, at 6:14 AM, Wido den Hollander <wido@widodh.nl> wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Op 23 augustus 2016 om 11:38 schreef Rohit Yadav <
> > rohit.yadav@shapeblue.com>:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Historically, CloudStack's debian/deb packages/repositories have never
> > been supported by the initial authors. For example, initial ACS version and
> > all CCP releases never shipped deb packages, nor in our (old and recent)
> > documentation we promote installation/running CloudStack on Debian/Ubuntu.
> > Afaik, it was Wido who introduced it because he wanted to run CloudStack on
> > Ubuntu/Debian-based distro. Also, the packages are something that the
> > project never shipped or endorsed or supported, so it's up to the
> > maintainers of various repositories how they are building and hosting
> > CloudStack packages. Even if we remove the packaging support in our
> > branch/repository, anyone can build CloudStack for any distro, several
> > people/projects have packaging related buildsystem/code separated from the
> > project codebase. Most tutorials that I found are based around Ubuntu 14.04
> > or CentOS, given that 12.04 is 4+ years old, we might not even have anyone
> > using CloudStack on it.
> > >>
> > >
> > > I highly doubt somebody still runs Ubuntu 12.04 with a recent version of
> > CloudStack.
> > >
> > > 4+ years in Qemu/libvirt time is a very long time.
> > >
> > >>
> > >> That said -- I think 4.9 should at least not drop the support yet, just
> > to let any Ubuntu 12.04 user who may be using it in the wild. If we look at
> > the PR, the way we're dropping the support is by simply bumping up few
> > package dependency versions. The issue of supporting or dropping support
> > for Ubuntu 12.04 lies in those version changes only.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> The more important thing right now is to support at least Ubuntu 16.04
> > hosts as KVM guests and usage-server hosts, which is much needed in both
> > 4.9 and master branch for the upcoming 4.9.1.0 and 4.10.0.0 releases.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Wido -- would it be acceptable to avoid bumping up the min. package
> > dependency version, i.e we don't change the pkg dependencies for
> > cloudstack-agent and keep the version number as it is for lsb-base,
> > qemu-kvm, libvirt-bin for 4.9 branch. While on 4.10, we can discuss if we
> > want to drop the support now or plan this later.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > Well, yes. But I don't know *what* might break on 12.04. I wrote the PR
> > in May and there must have been a reason for that.
> > >
> > > Feel free to modify the PR and not bump those versions. Packages might
> > work or not, not completely sure.
> > >
> > > Wido
> > >
> > >> Regards.
> > >>
> > >> ________________________________
> > >> From: Wido den Hollander <wido@widodh.nl>
> > >> Sent: 23 August 2016 11:38:43
> > >> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org; John Burwell;
> > users@cloudstack.apache.org
> > >> Subject: Re: Eliminating Support for Ubuntu 12.04
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Op 23 augustus 2016 om 1:02 schreef John Burwell <
> > john.burwell@shapeblue.com>:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> All,
> > >>>
> > >>> PR 1647 [1] proposes dropping support for Ubuntu 12.04 from 4.9.2.0+.
> > The primary motivation for its removal is that the age of its libvirt and
> > qemu versions greatly complicate maintenance of the KVM integration.
> > However, Ubuntu 12.04 will be supported until April 2017 [2]. What would be
> > the impact to our user community of removing support for Ubuntu 12.04
> > before its EOL in April 2017?  If we don’t drop support for it in 4.x,
> > would it be acceptable to drop support for it in 5.0.0 which is currently
> > scheduled for release at the end of 2016 [3]?
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> The PR was supposed to go into 4.9 already, it just took way to long to
> > get merged. So that's why it would now go into 4.9.2
> > >>
> > >>> If we do chose to drop support for Ubuntu 12.04 in 4.x, I propose that
> > we remove it in 4.10.0.0 rather than 4.9.2.0.  First, it is reasonable for
> > users to expect that upgrading between patch releases (i.e. 4.9.x.x ->
> > 4.9.x+1.x) would not require system changes.  Dropping a distribution would
> > violate such an expectation. Second, 4.9 is an LTS branch.  Therefore,
> > maintaining 12.04 support in 4.9 would provide LTS users with support for
> > Ubuntu 12.04 until May 2018 — well after its EOL.  Does this approach seem
> > reasonable if we elect drop Ubuntu 12.04 in 4.x?
> > >>
> > >> Again, this PR had to be merged earlier, not later. It's just very
> > difficult packaging wise to keep supporting 12.04 and 16.04 at the same
> > time.
> > >>
> > >> The Qemu and libvirt versions in 12.04 are truly ancient. I doubt
> > anybody is running stock 12.04 with CloudStack 4.8 right now for example.
> > >>
> > >> The Ubuntu 12.04 debate has been popping up multiple times in the last
> > year.
> > >>
> > >> This PR has been open way to long, that's imho the main problem here.
> > >>
> > >> I'm in favor of dropping 12.04, should have been done in 4.9 already
> > and not wait any longer.
> > >>
> > >> Wido
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks,
> > >>> -John
> > >>>
> > >>> [1]: https://github.com/apache/cloudstack/pull/1647
> > >>> [2]: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases
> > >>> [3]: https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/CLOUDSTACK/
> > %5BPROPOSAL%5D+2016-2017+Release+Cycle+and+Calendar<htt
> > ps://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/CLOUDSTACK/
> > [PROPOSAL]+2016-2017+Release+Cycle+and+Calendar>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> john.burwell@shapeblue.com
> > >>> www.shapeblue.com<http://www.shapeblue.com>
> > >>> 53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, London VA WC2N 4HSUK
> > >>> @shapeblue
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >> rohit.yadav@shapeblue.com
> > >> www.shapeblue.com
> > >> 53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, London  WC2N 4HSUK
> > >> @shapeblue
> >
> >

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