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From Mathias Mullins <mathias.mull...@citrix.com>
Subject Re: XenServer and VMWare Cluster, same Zone/Pod
Date Mon, 04 Mar 2013 20:38:39 GMT
Francois,

You're right, It's a good conversation.

Is anyone saying that it's not possible to not do it at the Pod level? No
not at all, but I don't think a lot of people are convinced that that is
the right logical segmentation. First, what do you share at between the
hypervisors?
Clusters / Hosts - Definitely not!
Primary Storage - Even when this is offered at a Zone level, this won't be
able to be shared.
Management Networks / Pods - We've already excluded this for the most part
Public Networks - Well you could share you public IP space, but that range
space can also be separated amongst zones very easy.
Private Networks - Isolated networks don't really matter per se, and in
most environments I've seen (corporate environments) I don't think that
you would share the vlan with ESX / Xen. Maybe you could, but you would
most definitely want separate ranges.

So the primary savings point here is Secondary storage, and that makes
sense. You would be saving duplicate space on system VM templates,
templates that span zones, etc… So there is some definitely sharing
advantages here. But is it enough.

There's also the configuration aspects, but I think if you go down the
e-mail chain I think you can quickly see the configuration pieces that
have to be done to make a single Zone work, versus a separate zone is very
clean, clear and simple from a configuration setup.

Let's talk about the one point that no one has talked about yet, end user
experience.

When you go to launch a VM, the very first thing it will ask you to pick
is a Zone. Now one of the reasons that we suggest this as a best practice
is that you can very quickly, clearly and efficiently have the customer,
end user, IT user, whoever, pick are they going into a Xen or VMware
environment. It's quick simple choice that then guides all the rest of
their choices from there on out. No looking through Xen Service offerings
and ESX service offerings, Xen Templates and ESX templates, and making
sure everything in the end matches. Because if they don't match. BOOM!
You're done. The VM will never launch, and the end-user may not be
technically savy enough to know the difference. Now this could be a paying
customer or a finance user sitting 5 cubes away, or your mother-in-law you
talked into having a website for her macrame business. Ease of use changes
everything.

So if you are getting little reuse benefit, easier configuration, and
better end user experience, to us that equals a "Best Practice". Is that
a Definite? No. Do we (Citrix) help setup customers both ways, you bet. We
support CS or our version CCP both ways? You bet. Hopefully that explains
it a little better. I rarely talk about what Citrix might do in the
implementation world on here, but this one is one we feel pretty good
about.

Thanks,
Matt Mullins
Cloud Platforms Implementation Engineer
Worldwide Cloud Services – Citrix System, Inc.
+1 (407) 920-1107 – Office/Cell Phone
matt.mullins@citrix.com



On 3/4/13 3:08 PM, "Francois Gaudreault" <fgaudreault@cloudops.com> wrote:

>Ok, but a zone should still represent a large portion of a data center.
>In our case, I don't see the requirement to break into a new zone.  A
>new Pod would make more sense since there is no real benefit to
>duplicate or add complexity to your network infrastructure because you
>have 2 different hypervisor types.  XenServer can use VLANs, so do
>VMware, so why not use the same ;)
>
>Interesting discussion :)
>
>Francois
>
>On 2013-03-04 2:53 PM, Mathias Mullins wrote:
>> No, not really.
>>
>> A Zone, is a logical segmentation of separate Infrastructure. Usually
>> because of the differences in Xen and ESX, you're going to find many of
>> those Infrastructure components different. PODs usually separate at L2
>> separation. Zones can separate at L3 points.
>>
>> Many companies are known to have multiple security or routing zones
>>within
>> a single data center. So the concept is no truly that of a single DC.
>>
>> Matt Mullins
>> CloudPlatform Implementation Engineer
>> Worldwide Cloud Services – Citrix System, Inc.
>> +1 (407) 920-1107 – Office/Cell Phone
>> matt.mullins@citrix.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/4/13 2:40 PM, "Francois Gaudreault" <fgaudreault@cloudops.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>> However, don't you think it breaks the concept of a "Zone" being a
>>>"Data
>>> Center"?
>>>
>>> To me,  one could/should be able to run clusters with different
>>> hypervisors within the same pod.
>>>
>>> I might just be a little too picky on terms tho :P
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2013-03-04 2:26 PM, Ahmad Emneina wrote:
>>>> +1 to separate zones. thats def. the best practice we preach.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 11:22 AM, Mathias Mullins
>>>> <mathias.mullins@citrix.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> While you can do it as both Francois and Geoff have said. I can tell
>>>>> you
>>>>> that our "Best Practice" that we implement with is that they be
>>>>> separate
>>>>> zones to avoid as many of problems and complex configurations as
>>>>> possible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Matt Mullins
>>>>> CloudPlatform Implementation Engineer
>>>>> Worldwide Cloud Services ­ Citrix System, Inc.
>>>>> +1 (407) 920-1107 ­ Office/Cell Phone
>>>>> matt.mullins@citrix.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/4/13 2:20 PM, "Francois Gaudreault" <fgaudreault@cloudops.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just to confirm, you can create a Cloud with a single Zone,
>>>>>>> containing
>>>>>>> both XenServer Clusters and VMware Clusters, but you should create
>>>>>>> unique PODs, one for XenServer and one for VMware
>>>>>> This should be documented :P (or maybe it is)
>>>>>>> Because XenServer uses LinkLocal and VMware does not, the Reserved
>>>>>>>IP
>>>>>>> Ranges for each POD will be significantly different.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regarding System VMs, there is a Global Setting which allow you
to
>>>>>>> control which Hypervisor the System VMs will prefer, its
>>>>>>> 'system.vm.default.hypervisor' if you do not set this, it typically
>>>>>>> creates them on the first available Cluster, then sticks with
that
>>>>>>> Hypervisor type.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Changing that global setting, restarting the management service,
>>>>>>>then
>>>>>>> destroying the system VMs will see them move from one type of
>>>>>>> hypervisor
>>>>>>> to another, I have done this many time, so if it's not working,
you
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> a problem somewhere.
>>>>>> That explains couple issues I had with the VRs.  They were
>>>>>>constantly
>>>>>> trying to launch on the last added cluster (in my case VMWare).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for the precisions Geoff!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Francois
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Geoff Higginbottom
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> D: +44 20 3603 0542 | S: +44 20 3603 0540 | M: +447968161581
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> geoff.higginbottom@shapeblue.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Ahmad Emneina [mailto:aemneina@gmail.com]
>>>>>>> Sent: 04 March 2013 19:04
>>>>>>> To: Cloudstack users; fgaudreault@cloudops.com
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: XenServer and VMWare Cluster, same Zone/Pod
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> this is odd indeed, have you tried these actions against homogenous
>>>>>>> clouds?
>>>>>>> I wonder that to see if this can be reproduced to see if its
an
>>>>>>> environmental issue vs mixed cloud bug.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Francois Gaudreault <
>>>>>>> fgaudreault@cloudops.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ok, so restarting the management service resolve a part of
it.
>>>>>>>> Templates are now available and on the filesystem.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now I am facing another issue, I cannot deploy a VM from
any
>>>>>>>> template
>>>>>>>> on the VMWare Cluster (VR template included).  I keep getting
:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> WARN  [agent.manager.**AgentManagerImpl] (Job-Executor-21:job-102)
>>>>>>>> Unsupported Command: Unsupported command
>>>>>>>> issued:com.cloud.agent.api.**
>>>>>>>> storage.**PrimaryStorageDownloadCommand. Are you sure you
got the
>>>>>>>> right type of server?
>>>>>>>> ERROR [cloud.vm.**VirtualMachineManagerImpl]
>>>>>>>> (Job-Executor-21:job-102)
>>>>>>>> Failed to start instance VM[DomainRouter|r-19-VM]
>>>>>>>> java.lang.ClassCastException:
>>>>>>>> com.cloud.agent.api.**UnsupportedAnswer
>>>>>>>> cannot be cast to com.cloud.agent.api.storage.**
>>>>>>>> PrimaryStorageDownloadAnswer
>>>>>>>>        at com.cloud.template.**TemplateManagerImpl.**
>>>>>>>> prepareTemplateForCreate(**TemplateManagerImpl.java:663)
>>>>>>>>        at com.cloud.utils.db.**DatabaseCallback.intercept(**
>>>>>>>> DatabaseCallback.java:34)
>>>>>>>>        at com.cloud.storage.**StorageManagerImpl.**createVolume(**
>>>>>>>> StorageManagerImpl.java:3448)
>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>> INFO  [vmware.resource.**VmwareResource]
>>>>>>>> (DirectAgent-436:172.30.100.**31) Executing resource StopCommand:
>>>>>>>> {"isProxy":false,"vmName":"r-** 19-VM","wait":0} INFO
>>>>>>>> [vmware.resource.**VmwareResource]
>>>>>>>>(DirectAgent-436:172.30.100.**31)
>>>>>>>> VM r-19-VM is no longer in vSphere WARN
>>>>>>>> [cloud.network.**NetworkManagerImpl] (Job-Executor-21:job-102)
>>>>>>>>Can't
>>>>>>>> get the physical network INFO
>>>>>>>> [cloud.vm.**VirtualMachineManagerImpl]
>>>>>>>> (Job-Executor-21:job-102) Unable to contact resource.
>>>>>>>> com.cloud.exception.**AgentUnavailableException: Resource
>>>>>>>>[Host:10]
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> unreachable: Host 10: Unable to start instance due to
>>>>>>>> com.cloud.agent.api.
>>>>>>>> **UnsupportedAnswer cannot be cast to
>>>>>>>>com.cloud.agent.api.storage.**
>>>>>>>> PrimaryStorageDownloadAnswer
>>>>>>>>        at
>>>>>>>>com.cloud.vm.**VirtualMachineManagerImpl.**advanceStart(**
>>>>>>>> VirtualMachineManagerImpl.**java:847)
>>>>>>>>        at com.cloud.vm.**VirtualMachineManagerImpl.**start(**
>>>>>>>> VirtualMachineManagerImpl.**java:472)
>>>>>>>>        at
>>>>>>>>com.cloud.network.router.**VirtualNetworkApplianceManager**
>>>>>>>> Impl.start(**VirtualNetworkApplianceManager**Impl.java:2352)
>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>> Caused by: java.lang.ClassCastException:
>>>>>>>> com.cloud.agent.api.**UnsupportedAnswer
>>>>>>>> cannot be cast to com.cloud.agent.api.storage.**
>>>>>>>> PrimaryStorageDownloadAnswer
>>>>>>>>        at com.cloud.template.**TemplateManagerImpl.**
>>>>>>>> prepareTemplateForCreate(**TemplateManagerImpl.java:663)
>>>>>>>>        at com.cloud.utils.db.**DatabaseCallback.intercept(**
>>>>>>>> DatabaseCallback.java:34)
>>>>>>>>        at com.cloud.storage.**StorageManagerImpl.**createVolume(**
>>>>>>>> StorageManagerImpl.java:3448)
>>>>>>>>        at com.cloud.storage.**StorageManagerImpl.prepare(**
>>>>>>>> StorageManagerImpl.java:3351)
>>>>>>>>        at
>>>>>>>>com.cloud.vm.**VirtualMachineManagerImpl.**advanceStart(**
>>>>>>>> VirtualMachineManagerImpl.**java:754)
>>>>>>>>        ... 33 more
>>>>>>>> INFO  [vmware.resource.**VmwareResource]
>>>>>>>> (DirectAgent-252:172.30.100.**31) Executing resource StopCommand:
>>>>>>>> {"isProxy":false,"vmName":"i-** 2-20-VM","wait":0} INFO
>>>>>>>> [vmware.resource.**VmwareResource]
>>>>>>>>(DirectAgent-252:172.30.100.**31)
>>>>>>>> VM i-2-20-VM is no longer in vSphere
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The weird thing is that I can deploy a VM using an ISO just
>>>>>>>>fine...
>>>>>>>> Any clues?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2013-02-25 11:26 AM, Francois Gaudreault wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just a quick question, is there any issues that we might
face if
>>>>>>>>>we
>>>>>>>>> have a XenServer Cluster and a VMWare Cluster in the
same
>>>>>>>>>pod/zone?
>>>>>>>>> Will CloudStack spin 1 SystemVM for each hypervisor?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am seeing that the system vm template for vSphere says
>>>>>>>>>"download
>>>>>>>>> complete", but without any size in the UI/Database. The
default
>>>>>>>>> template for vSphere will not download as well. We are
on CS
>>>>>>>>>4.0.1
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                id: 2
>>>>>>>>>           host_id: 5
>>>>>>>>>       template_id: 8
>>>>>>>>>           created: 2013-02-22 15:05:03
>>>>>>>>>      last_updated: 2013-02-22 15:05:03
>>>>>>>>>            job_id: NULL
>>>>>>>>>      download_pct: 100
>>>>>>>>>              size: 0
>>>>>>>>>     physical_size: 0
>>>>>>>>> download_state: DOWNLOADED
>>>>>>>>>         error_str: NULL
>>>>>>>>>        local_path: NULL
>>>>>>>>>      install_path: template/tmpl/1/8/
>>>>>>>>>               url:
>>>>>>>>> http://download.cloud.com/**templates/burbank/burbank-**
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> systemvm-08012012.ova<
>>>>> http://download.cloud.com/templates/burbank/burba
>>>>>>>>> nk-systemvm-08012012.ova>
>>>>>>>>>         destroyed: 0
>>>>>>>>>           is_copy: 0
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for help!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Francois Gaudreault
>>>>>>>> Architecte de Solution Cloud | Cloud Solutions Architect
>>>>>>>> fgaudreault@cloudops.com
>>>>>>>> 514-629-6775
>>>>>>>> - - -
>>>>>>>> CloudOps
>>>>>>>> 420 rue Guy
>>>>>>>> Montréal QC  H3J 1S6
>>>>>>>> www.cloudops.com
>>>>>>>> @CloudOps_
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ShapeBlue provides a range of strategic and technical consulting
>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>> implementation services to help IT Service Providers and
>>>>>>>Enterprises
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> build a true IaaS compute cloud. ShapeBlue¹s expertise, combined
>>>>>>>with
>>>>>>> CloudStack technology, allows IT Service Providers and Enterprises
>>>>>>>to
>>>>>>> deliver true, utility based, IaaS to the customer or end-user.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This email and any attachments to it may be confidential and
are
>>>>>>> intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is
>>>>>>> addressed.
>>>>>>> Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author
and
>>>>>>>do
>>>>>>> not necessarily represent those of Shape Blue Ltd. If you are
not
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>> intended recipient of this email, you must neither take any action
>>>>>>> based
>>>>>>> upon its contents, nor copy or show it to anyone. Please contact
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>> sender if you believe you have received this email in error.
Shape
>>>>>>> Blue
>>>>>>> Ltd is a company incorporated in England & Wales.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Francois Gaudreault
>>>>>> Architecte de Solution Cloud | Cloud Solutions Architect
>>>>>> fgaudreault@cloudops.com
>>>>>> 514-629-6775
>>>>>> - - -
>>>>>> CloudOps
>>>>>> 420 rue Guy
>>>>>> Montréal QC  H3J 1S6
>>>>>> www.cloudops.com
>>>>>> @CloudOps_
>>>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Francois Gaudreault
>>> Architecte de Solution Cloud | Cloud Solutions Architect
>>> fgaudreault@cloudops.com
>>> 514-629-6775
>>> - - -
>>> CloudOps
>>> 420 rue Guy
>>> Montréal QC  H3J 1S6
>>> www.cloudops.com
>>> @CloudOps_
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>--
>Francois Gaudreault
>Architecte de Solution Cloud | Cloud Solutions Architect
>fgaudreault@cloudops.com
>514-629-6775
>- - -
>CloudOps
>420 rue Guy
>Montréal QC  H3J 1S6
>www.cloudops.com
>@CloudOps_
>


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