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From Francois Gaudreault <fgaudrea...@cloudops.com>
Subject Re: XenServer and VMWare Cluster, same Zone/Pod
Date Mon, 04 Mar 2013 21:01:43 GMT
Matt,

Thanks for sharing Citrix insights about this :)

Like you said, there is no final answers for the question :P It all 
comes down about pros and cons for each architecture, and the context 
where the private (or public) cloud is deployed.

Thanks for the discussion and ideas :)

Francois

On 2013-03-04 3:38 PM, Mathias Mullins wrote:
> Francois,
>
> You're right, It's a good conversation.
>
> Is anyone saying that it's not possible to not do it at the Pod level? No
> not at all, but I don't think a lot of people are convinced that that is
> the right logical segmentation. First, what do you share at between the
> hypervisors?
> Clusters / Hosts - Definitely not!
> Primary Storage - Even when this is offered at a Zone level, this won't be
> able to be shared.
> Management Networks / Pods - We've already excluded this for the most part
> Public Networks - Well you could share you public IP space, but that range
> space can also be separated amongst zones very easy.
> Private Networks - Isolated networks don't really matter per se, and in
> most environments I've seen (corporate environments) I don't think that
> you would share the vlan with ESX / Xen. Maybe you could, but you would
> most definitely want separate ranges.
>
> So the primary savings point here is Secondary storage, and that makes
> sense. You would be saving duplicate space on system VM templates,
> templates that span zones, etc… So there is some definitely sharing
> advantages here. But is it enough.
>
> There's also the configuration aspects, but I think if you go down the
> e-mail chain I think you can quickly see the configuration pieces that
> have to be done to make a single Zone work, versus a separate zone is very
> clean, clear and simple from a configuration setup.
>
> Let's talk about the one point that no one has talked about yet, end user
> experience.
>
> When you go to launch a VM, the very first thing it will ask you to pick
> is a Zone. Now one of the reasons that we suggest this as a best practice
> is that you can very quickly, clearly and efficiently have the customer,
> end user, IT user, whoever, pick are they going into a Xen or VMware
> environment. It's quick simple choice that then guides all the rest of
> their choices from there on out. No looking through Xen Service offerings
> and ESX service offerings, Xen Templates and ESX templates, and making
> sure everything in the end matches. Because if they don't match. BOOM!
> You're done. The VM will never launch, and the end-user may not be
> technically savy enough to know the difference. Now this could be a paying
> customer or a finance user sitting 5 cubes away, or your mother-in-law you
> talked into having a website for her macrame business. Ease of use changes
> everything.
>
> So if you are getting little reuse benefit, easier configuration, and
> better end user experience, to us that equals a "Best Practice". Is that
> a Definite? No. Do we (Citrix) help setup customers both ways, you bet. We
> support CS or our version CCP both ways? You bet. Hopefully that explains
> it a little better. I rarely talk about what Citrix might do in the
> implementation world on here, but this one is one we feel pretty good
> about.
>
> Thanks,
> Matt Mullins
> Cloud Platforms Implementation Engineer
> Worldwide Cloud Services – Citrix System, Inc.
> +1 (407) 920-1107 – Office/Cell Phone
> matt.mullins@citrix.com
>
>
>
> On 3/4/13 3:08 PM, "Francois Gaudreault" <fgaudreault@cloudops.com> wrote:
>
>> Ok, but a zone should still represent a large portion of a data center.
>> In our case, I don't see the requirement to break into a new zone.  A
>> new Pod would make more sense since there is no real benefit to
>> duplicate or add complexity to your network infrastructure because you
>> have 2 different hypervisor types.  XenServer can use VLANs, so do
>> VMware, so why not use the same ;)
>>
>> Interesting discussion :)
>>
>> Francois
>>
>> On 2013-03-04 2:53 PM, Mathias Mullins wrote:
>>> No, not really.
>>>
>>> A Zone, is a logical segmentation of separate Infrastructure. Usually
>>> because of the differences in Xen and ESX, you're going to find many of
>>> those Infrastructure components different. PODs usually separate at L2
>>> separation. Zones can separate at L3 points.
>>>
>>> Many companies are known to have multiple security or routing zones
>>> within
>>> a single data center. So the concept is no truly that of a single DC.
>>>
>>> Matt Mullins
>>> CloudPlatform Implementation Engineer
>>> Worldwide Cloud Services – Citrix System, Inc.
>>> +1 (407) 920-1107 – Office/Cell Phone
>>> matt.mullins@citrix.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/4/13 2:40 PM, "Francois Gaudreault" <fgaudreault@cloudops.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> However, don't you think it breaks the concept of a "Zone" being a
>>>> "Data
>>>> Center"?
>>>>
>>>> To me,  one could/should be able to run clusters with different
>>>> hypervisors within the same pod.
>>>>
>>>> I might just be a little too picky on terms tho :P
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2013-03-04 2:26 PM, Ahmad Emneina wrote:
>>>>> +1 to separate zones. thats def. the best practice we preach.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Mar 4, 2013 at 11:22 AM, Mathias Mullins
>>>>> <mathias.mullins@citrix.com
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> While you can do it as both Francois and Geoff have said. I can tell
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> that our "Best Practice" that we implement with is that they be
>>>>>> separate
>>>>>> zones to avoid as many of problems and complex configurations as
>>>>>> possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Matt Mullins
>>>>>> CloudPlatform Implementation Engineer
>>>>>> Worldwide Cloud Services ­ Citrix System, Inc.
>>>>>> +1 (407) 920-1107 ­ Office/Cell Phone
>>>>>> matt.mullins@citrix.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3/4/13 2:20 PM, "Francois Gaudreault" <fgaudreault@cloudops.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just to confirm, you can create a Cloud with a single Zone,
>>>>>>>> containing
>>>>>>>> both XenServer Clusters and VMware Clusters, but you should
create
>>>>>>>> unique PODs, one for XenServer and one for VMware
>>>>>>> This should be documented :P (or maybe it is)
>>>>>>>> Because XenServer uses LinkLocal and VMware does not, the
Reserved
>>>>>>>> IP
>>>>>>>> Ranges for each POD will be significantly different.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regarding System VMs, there is a Global Setting which allow
you to
>>>>>>>> control which Hypervisor the System VMs will prefer, its
>>>>>>>> 'system.vm.default.hypervisor' if you do not set this, it
typically
>>>>>>>> creates them on the first available Cluster, then sticks
with that
>>>>>>>> Hypervisor type.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Changing that global setting, restarting the management service,
>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>> destroying the system VMs will see them move from one type
of
>>>>>>>> hypervisor
>>>>>>>> to another, I have done this many time, so if it's not working,
you
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> a problem somewhere.
>>>>>>> That explains couple issues I had with the VRs.  They were
>>>>>>> constantly
>>>>>>> trying to launch on the last added cluster (in my case VMWare).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for the precisions Geoff!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Francois
>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Geoff Higginbottom
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> D: +44 20 3603 0542 | S: +44 20 3603 0540 | M: +447968161581
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> geoff.higginbottom@shapeblue.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Ahmad Emneina [mailto:aemneina@gmail.com]
>>>>>>>> Sent: 04 March 2013 19:04
>>>>>>>> To: Cloudstack users; fgaudreault@cloudops.com
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: XenServer and VMWare Cluster, same Zone/Pod
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> this is odd indeed, have you tried these actions against
homogenous
>>>>>>>> clouds?
>>>>>>>> I wonder that to see if this can be reproduced to see if
its an
>>>>>>>> environmental issue vs mixed cloud bug.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 25, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Francois Gaudreault <
>>>>>>>> fgaudreault@cloudops.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ok, so restarting the management service resolve a part
of it.
>>>>>>>>> Templates are now available and on the filesystem.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Now I am facing another issue, I cannot deploy a VM from
any
>>>>>>>>> template
>>>>>>>>> on the VMWare Cluster (VR template included).  I keep
getting :
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> WARN  [agent.manager.**AgentManagerImpl] (Job-Executor-21:job-102)
>>>>>>>>> Unsupported Command: Unsupported command
>>>>>>>>> issued:com.cloud.agent.api.**
>>>>>>>>> storage.**PrimaryStorageDownloadCommand. Are you sure
you got the
>>>>>>>>> right type of server?
>>>>>>>>> ERROR [cloud.vm.**VirtualMachineManagerImpl]
>>>>>>>>> (Job-Executor-21:job-102)
>>>>>>>>> Failed to start instance VM[DomainRouter|r-19-VM]
>>>>>>>>> java.lang.ClassCastException:
>>>>>>>>> com.cloud.agent.api.**UnsupportedAnswer
>>>>>>>>> cannot be cast to com.cloud.agent.api.storage.**
>>>>>>>>> PrimaryStorageDownloadAnswer
>>>>>>>>>         at com.cloud.template.**TemplateManagerImpl.**
>>>>>>>>> prepareTemplateForCreate(**TemplateManagerImpl.java:663)
>>>>>>>>>         at com.cloud.utils.db.**DatabaseCallback.intercept(**
>>>>>>>>> DatabaseCallback.java:34)
>>>>>>>>>         at com.cloud.storage.**StorageManagerImpl.**createVolume(**
>>>>>>>>> StorageManagerImpl.java:3448)
>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>> INFO  [vmware.resource.**VmwareResource]
>>>>>>>>> (DirectAgent-436:172.30.100.**31) Executing resource
StopCommand:
>>>>>>>>> {"isProxy":false,"vmName":"r-** 19-VM","wait":0} INFO
>>>>>>>>> [vmware.resource.**VmwareResource]
>>>>>>>>> (DirectAgent-436:172.30.100.**31)
>>>>>>>>> VM r-19-VM is no longer in vSphere WARN
>>>>>>>>> [cloud.network.**NetworkManagerImpl] (Job-Executor-21:job-102)
>>>>>>>>> Can't
>>>>>>>>> get the physical network INFO
>>>>>>>>> [cloud.vm.**VirtualMachineManagerImpl]
>>>>>>>>> (Job-Executor-21:job-102) Unable to contact resource.
>>>>>>>>> com.cloud.exception.**AgentUnavailableException: Resource
>>>>>>>>> [Host:10]
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> unreachable: Host 10: Unable to start instance due to
>>>>>>>>> com.cloud.agent.api.
>>>>>>>>> **UnsupportedAnswer cannot be cast to
>>>>>>>>> com.cloud.agent.api.storage.**
>>>>>>>>> PrimaryStorageDownloadAnswer
>>>>>>>>>         at
>>>>>>>>> com.cloud.vm.**VirtualMachineManagerImpl.**advanceStart(**
>>>>>>>>> VirtualMachineManagerImpl.**java:847)
>>>>>>>>>         at com.cloud.vm.**VirtualMachineManagerImpl.**start(**
>>>>>>>>> VirtualMachineManagerImpl.**java:472)
>>>>>>>>>         at
>>>>>>>>> com.cloud.network.router.**VirtualNetworkApplianceManager**
>>>>>>>>> Impl.start(**VirtualNetworkApplianceManager**Impl.java:2352)
>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>> Caused by: java.lang.ClassCastException:
>>>>>>>>> com.cloud.agent.api.**UnsupportedAnswer
>>>>>>>>> cannot be cast to com.cloud.agent.api.storage.**
>>>>>>>>> PrimaryStorageDownloadAnswer
>>>>>>>>>         at com.cloud.template.**TemplateManagerImpl.**
>>>>>>>>> prepareTemplateForCreate(**TemplateManagerImpl.java:663)
>>>>>>>>>         at com.cloud.utils.db.**DatabaseCallback.intercept(**
>>>>>>>>> DatabaseCallback.java:34)
>>>>>>>>>         at com.cloud.storage.**StorageManagerImpl.**createVolume(**
>>>>>>>>> StorageManagerImpl.java:3448)
>>>>>>>>>         at com.cloud.storage.**StorageManagerImpl.prepare(**
>>>>>>>>> StorageManagerImpl.java:3351)
>>>>>>>>>         at
>>>>>>>>> com.cloud.vm.**VirtualMachineManagerImpl.**advanceStart(**
>>>>>>>>> VirtualMachineManagerImpl.**java:754)
>>>>>>>>>         ... 33 more
>>>>>>>>> INFO  [vmware.resource.**VmwareResource]
>>>>>>>>> (DirectAgent-252:172.30.100.**31) Executing resource
StopCommand:
>>>>>>>>> {"isProxy":false,"vmName":"i-** 2-20-VM","wait":0} INFO
>>>>>>>>> [vmware.resource.**VmwareResource]
>>>>>>>>> (DirectAgent-252:172.30.100.**31)
>>>>>>>>> VM i-2-20-VM is no longer in vSphere
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The weird thing is that I can deploy a VM using an ISO
just
>>>>>>>>> fine...
>>>>>>>>> Any clues?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 2013-02-25 11:26 AM, Francois Gaudreault wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Just a quick question, is there any issues that we
might face if
>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>> have a XenServer Cluster and a VMWare Cluster in
the same
>>>>>>>>>> pod/zone?
>>>>>>>>>> Will CloudStack spin 1 SystemVM for each hypervisor?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am seeing that the system vm template for vSphere
says
>>>>>>>>>> "download
>>>>>>>>>> complete", but without any size in the UI/Database.
The default
>>>>>>>>>> template for vSphere will not download as well. We
are on CS
>>>>>>>>>> 4.0.1
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                 id: 2
>>>>>>>>>>            host_id: 5
>>>>>>>>>>        template_id: 8
>>>>>>>>>>            created: 2013-02-22 15:05:03
>>>>>>>>>>       last_updated: 2013-02-22 15:05:03
>>>>>>>>>>             job_id: NULL
>>>>>>>>>>       download_pct: 100
>>>>>>>>>>               size: 0
>>>>>>>>>>      physical_size: 0
>>>>>>>>>> download_state: DOWNLOADED
>>>>>>>>>>          error_str: NULL
>>>>>>>>>>         local_path: NULL
>>>>>>>>>>       install_path: template/tmpl/1/8/
>>>>>>>>>>                url:
>>>>>>>>>> http://download.cloud.com/**templates/burbank/burbank-**
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> systemvm-08012012.ova<
>>>>>> http://download.cloud.com/templates/burbank/burba
>>>>>>>>>> nk-systemvm-08012012.ova>
>>>>>>>>>>          destroyed: 0
>>>>>>>>>>            is_copy: 0
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for help!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Francois Gaudreault
>>>>>>>>> Architecte de Solution Cloud | Cloud Solutions Architect
>>>>>>>>> fgaudreault@cloudops.com
>>>>>>>>> 514-629-6775
>>>>>>>>> - - -
>>>>>>>>> CloudOps
>>>>>>>>> 420 rue Guy
>>>>>>>>> Montréal QC  H3J 1S6
>>>>>>>>> www.cloudops.com
>>>>>>>>> @CloudOps_
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ShapeBlue provides a range of strategic and technical consulting
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> implementation services to help IT Service Providers and
>>>>>>>> Enterprises
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> build a true IaaS compute cloud. ShapeBlue¹s expertise,
combined
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> CloudStack technology, allows IT Service Providers and Enterprises
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> deliver true, utility based, IaaS to the customer or end-user.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This email and any attachments to it may be confidential
and are
>>>>>>>> intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it
is
>>>>>>>> addressed.
>>>>>>>> Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author
and
>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> not necessarily represent those of Shape Blue Ltd. If you
are not
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> intended recipient of this email, you must neither take any
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>>>>>>>> based
>>>>>>>> upon its contents, nor copy or show it to anyone. Please
contact
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> sender if you believe you have received this email in error.
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>>>>>>>> Blue
>>>>>>>> Ltd is a company incorporated in England & Wales.
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Francois Gaudreault
>>>>>>> Architecte de Solution Cloud | Cloud Solutions Architect
>>>>>>> fgaudreault@cloudops.com
>>>>>>> 514-629-6775
>>>>>>> - - -
>>>>>>> CloudOps
>>>>>>> 420 rue Guy
>>>>>>> Montréal QC  H3J 1S6
>>>>>>> www.cloudops.com
>>>>>>> @CloudOps_
>>>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Francois Gaudreault
>>>> Architecte de Solution Cloud | Cloud Solutions Architect
>>>> fgaudreault@cloudops.com
>>>> 514-629-6775
>>>> - - -
>>>> CloudOps
>>>> 420 rue Guy
>>>> Montréal QC  H3J 1S6
>>>> www.cloudops.com
>>>> @CloudOps_
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Francois Gaudreault
>> Architecte de Solution Cloud | Cloud Solutions Architect
>> fgaudreault@cloudops.com
>> 514-629-6775
>> - - -
>> CloudOps
>> 420 rue Guy
>> Montréal QC  H3J 1S6
>> www.cloudops.com
>> @CloudOps_
>>
>
>


-- 
Francois Gaudreault
Architecte de Solution Cloud | Cloud Solutions Architect
fgaudreault@cloudops.com
514-629-6775
- - -
CloudOps
420 rue Guy
Montréal QC  H3J 1S6
www.cloudops.com
@CloudOps_


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