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From: Alex Hitchins <alex@alexhitchins.com>
To: <dev@cloudstack.apache.org>
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Subject: RE: JIRA - PLEASE READ
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 11:51:54 +0100
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archived-at: Fri, 30 Jun 2017 10:52:07 -0000

Hello,

I've created a DISCUSS thread to... discuss this subject separately from =
the original Jira issue.

Sorry Paul for hijacking your Jira rant.


Alexander Hitchins
------------------------
E: alex@alexhitchins.com
W: alexhitchins.com
M: 07788 423 969
T: 01892 523 587

-----Original Message-----
From: Rafael Weing=C3=A4rtner [mailto:rafaelweingartner@gmail.com]=20
Sent: 29 June 2017 20:41
To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
Subject: Re: JIRA - PLEASE READ

That is what I am saying. Apache can (and does) handle donations, and =
there have been discussions about donations that can be directed to =
projects at the donation time (someone that knows about the topic could =
provide some help here?).


So, the foundation part looks covered for me....I think we need =
something else.

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 3:35 PM, Marty Godsey <marty@gonsource.com> =
wrote:

> Rafael,
>
> I agree. I am not saying move away from Apache.. I am saying setup a=20
> "foundation" to handle donations and even development management..
>
> Regards,
> Marty Godsey
> Principal Engineer
> nSource Solutions, LLC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rafael Weing=C3=A4rtner [mailto:rafaelweingartner@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 3:28 PM
> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
> Subject: Re: JIRA - PLEASE READ
>
> ACS is an Apache project, not a foundation per se; donation goes to =
Apache.
> I know that there is some discussion/work to create a way for donating =

> things (not just money) to projects, but I do not know how that is =
going.
>
> I do not think we need to create other foundation and move away from=20
> Apache (because that is what this move would look like....)
>
> But still, I wonder, even if we had a CloudStack foundation, would=20
> that make organizations that rely on it to donate/contribute more=20
> actively? Is that the real problem?
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 3:20 PM, Marty Godsey <marty@gonsource.com> =
wrote:
>
> > Alex,
> >
> > I agree.. The only "good" way that we will get more adoption is to=20
> > treat it like an Enterprise product. But that would require =
investment.
> > Investment with money, not just time.
> >
> > As an example, I use pfSense alot in my projects. If I put in a=20
> > pfSense router, I take 2-5% (depends on scope) of the GDM and donate =

> > to the pfSense project. I do this because pfSense makes me a lot of=20
> > money and I want it to get better.. The only way it will get better=20
> > is by supporting it. And even if I was a coder, "supporting" it with =

> > code
> only goes so far.
> >
> > And as mentioned, we create a CloudStack Foundation that is a 501C=20
> > corp so it's a non-profit and tax deductible for people donating.
> >
> > So the next question is who would we speak with to get this ball=20
> > rolling or even a discussion started?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Marty Godsey
> > Principal Engineer
> > nSource Solutions, LLC
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Alex Hitchins [mailto:alex@alexhitchins.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 1:49 PM
> > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: JIRA - PLEASE READ
> >
> > If it isn't being treated as a product it will be very impossible to =

> > market it as enterprise ready.
> >
> > I know we all know this.
> >
> > Similar sized projects under the Apache banner must have the same=20
> > issue, what is the best way to gather experience of these projects?
> > See how they handle these growing pains.
> >
> > A cloudstack foundation entity funded by companies earning from=20
> > cloudstack seems a good way forward.
> >
> > Another tuppence, this is getting expensive.
> >
> >
> >
> > > On 29 Jun 2017, at 18:18, Ron Wheeler=20
> > > <rwheeler@artifact-software.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I understand that it is a volunteer organization.
> > > I do not know how many (if any) of the committers and PMC members=20
> > > are
> > funded by their organizations (allowed or ordered to work on=20
> > Cloudstack during company time) which is often the way that Apache=20
> > projects get staffed.
> > >
> > > Clearly it is hard to tell someone who is being funded by a=20
> > > company to
> > fix a problem or who is working on their own time, to do or not do=20
> > something.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, the PMC has to  build a community culture that=20
> > > is
> > good for the project.
> > > That means describing a vision, planning and enforcing a roadmap,=20
> > > and
> > maintaining a focused project "marketing" effort.
> > >
> > > There is a lot of extremely talented individuals working on=20
> > > Cloudstack
> > and it appears to have a very strong and valuable code-base.
> > >
> > > To me the key question is about the PMC and the core committers'
> > > ability
> > to make Cloudstack a "product" that can compete for market share and =

> > acceptance.
> > >
> > > Is Cloudstack at a point in its development where it should be=20
> > > treated
> > like a product?
> > > - sufficient functionality to compete
> > > - sufficient user base to be a competitor in the market
> > > - production reliability and stability
> > > - business model for supporting companies to justify their=20
> > > continued support
> > >
> > > This may not require more effort but requires different policies=20
> > > and
> > different activities.
> > >
> > > There has to be someone or a PMC  that can say "No".
> > > - This change can not be included in this release because it will=20
> > > delay
> > the release.
> > > - This change adds an unacceptable level of complexity
> > > - This bug fix will have to wait for the next release because it=20
> > > is too
> > late to test it and fix the docs.
> > > - This fix breaks the docs
> > > - The release can not be made until this doc is updated.
> > >
> > > Does the core group want to make it a competitive product or is it
> > sufficient for the interested players to continue in its current =
form?
> > >
> > > Ron
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> On 29/06/2017 9:42 AM, Will Stevens wrote:
> > >> I personally don't know how Jira solves any of this, but assuming =

> > >> it does, fine...
> > >>
> > >> The bigger problem which you have raised is that CloudStack has=20
> > >> zero funding. So we can't hire a project manager, or a release=20
> > >> manager or someone whose job it is to maintain documentation. I=20
> > >> have been trying to find a way to, at the very least, fund a full =

> > >> time release manager who can focus 100% on the project. As the=20
> > >> release manager for 4.9, I know it is a full time job. I did my=20
> > >> best, but it is a ton of work and is hard to stay on top of.
> > >>
> > >> Everyone contributing to CloudStack is donating their time. They=20
> > >> can't make a living off supporting ACS, so every one is doing=20
> > >> their best with the little time they can take away from their day =

> > >> job or
> > their family life.
> > >>
> > >> Yes, having clear guidelines and sticking to them helps, but=20
> > >> without a solid CI infrastructure backing the project and=20
> > >> improved testing and automation, we will always struggles with=20
> > >> release schedules and
> > such.
> > >>
> > >> I have been involved in this project long enough to know that all =

> > >> the problems you point out exist, but they are also not easily =
solved.
> > >> Obviously we have to work with the initiatives we have and take=20
> > >> small steps towards improvement, but we also have to be realistic =

> > >> with our expectations because we are counting on people's=20
> > >> generosity to move
> > them forward.
> > >>
> > >> Simplifying moving parts and streamlining the process will lead=20
> > >> to more contribution because there is less barriers to entry.=20
> > >> This one reason why I struggle to see the value in Jira as it is =
used today.
> > >> I personally don't understand what value it is giving us that the =

> > >> github PRs and Issues don't solve.
> > >>
> > >> I will remain open minded and will follow along with what people=20
> > >> think is best, but I think it is worth understanding what we are=20
> > >> trying to solve for and simplify our approach in solving it so we =

> > >> can get better systems in place.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Jun 29, 2017 9:17 AM, "Ron Wheeler"
> > >> <rwheeler@artifact-software.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> As a real outsider, IMHO Paul is right.
> > >>>
> > >>> At times it seems that Cloudstack is a coding hobby rather than=20
> > >>> a project or a production quality product.
> > >>>
> > >>> Who decides what goes into a release? How does this affect the=20
> > >>> release schedule?
> > >>> Who is responsible for meeting the "published" roadmap (of which =

> > >>> there seem to be many) of releases?
> > >>>
> > >>> How is a system admin that is not part of the project supposed=20
> > >>> to plan for upgrade windows?
> > >>> How does one know when a feature, bug fix or release will be
> available?
> > >>>
> > >>> How does the PMC  manage function creep  in a release, maintain=20
> > >>> quality and consistency, reject changes that hurt the overall=20
> > >>> vision or add too much complexity?
> > >>>
> > >>> No one seems to care about documentation but if someone did, how =

> > >>> would they stop undocumented features or features that=20
> > >>> contradict the documentation from being incorporated?
> > >>> Who makes sure that the documentation is correct at the time of=20
> > >>> the release?
> > >>> Release notes are not much help for someone doing a new install=20
> > >>> or evaluating Cloudstack.
> > >>>
> > >>> Without a JIRA entry, how does an end-user who encounters a=20
> > >>> problem know that it has been fixed already in the next release?
> > >>>
> > >>> Without a JIRA entry, how does the community comment on a=20
> > >>> proposed change before it gets coded?
> > >>>
> > >>> If changes are going to be accepted without a JIRA, is there a=20
> > >>> definition of a minor fix that does not require a JIRA?
> > >>> - does not change functionality?
> > >>> - only affects an "edge case" or cleans up an exception that is=20
> > >>> not properly handled?
> > >>> - only improves code readability or future extensibility?
> > >>> - does not affect documentation?
> > >>>
> > >>> Apache projects that are popular and enjoy wide support do have=20
> > >>> strong management.
> > >>>
> > >>> There are other examples where great Apache software is failing=20
> > >>> to get recognized because the PMC is not paying attention to the =

> > >>> product management side of things.
> > >>> I use Apache Jackrabbit which is a quality product with a strong =

> > >>> technical team supporting it.
> > >>> It has very little following because the documentation and=20
> > >>> marketing collateral is very poor.
> > >>> It gets by because the audience for it is largely software=20
> > >>> developers who can read code and can test features to work out=20
> > >>> the
> > functionality.
> > >>> It would get a lot more attention if they paid attention to the=20
> > >>> product management side of the project.
> > >>>
> > >>> Cloudstack needs to avoid this situation and unfortunately this=20
> > >>> takes effort and some discipline.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Ron
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> On 29/06/2017 8:03 AM, Will Stevens wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Why are we still using jira instead of the PRs for that=20
> > >>>> communication? Can we not use issues in github now instead of=20
> > >>>> jira if someone needs to open an issue but does not yet have=20
> > >>>> code to contribute. If not, jira could still be used for that.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I think duplicating data between jira and the PR is kind of=20
> > >>>> pointless. I feel like the github PRs and the cide going in=20
> > >>>> should be the source of truth, not a random third party tool.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> For the 4.9 release notes, i built a tool to generate the=20
> > >>>> release notes from the PRs merged in that release. I think that =

> > >>>> is easier and more accurate than depending on jira since it=20
> > >>>> does not track the actual code tree.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thats my 0.02$.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Jun 29, 2017 5:25 AM, "Paul Angus"=20
> > >>>> <paul.angus@shapeblue.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Such a view of CloudStack is what holds CloudStack back.
> > >>>> It stops users/operators from having any chance of=20
> > >>>> understanding what CloudStack does and how it does it.
> > >>>> Code for code's sake is no use to anyone.
> > >>>> Jira is about communication between developers and to everyone =
else.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Kind regards,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Paul Angus
> > >>>>
> > >>>> paul.angus@shapeblue.com
> > >>>> www.shapeblue.com
> > >>>> 53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, London  WC2N 4HSUK @shapeblue
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: Daan Hoogland [mailto:daan.hoogland@gmail.com]
> > >>>> Sent: 29 June 2017 10:14
> > >>>> To: dev <dev@cloudstack.apache.org>
> > >>>> Subject: Re: JIRA - PLEASE READ
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 11:06 AM, Paul Angus=20
> > >>>> <paul.angus@shapeblue.com>
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> + Release notes will be impossible to create without a proper=20
> > >>>>> + Jira
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> history.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> And no one will know what has gone into CloudStack.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> No they are not mr Grumpy. they should be base on the code=20
> > >>>> anyway, hence on git, not jira. I do not appose to the use of=20
> > >>>> Jira but it is not required for good coding practices and as we =

> > >>>> are not and will not function as a corporation, jira is an=20
> > >>>> extra for those that grave for it. not a requirement.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> Daan
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Ron Wheeler
> > >>> President
> > >>> Artifact Software Inc
> > >>> email: rwheeler@artifact-software.com
> > >>> skype: ronaldmwheeler
> > >>> phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ron Wheeler
> > > President
> > > Artifact Software Inc
> > > email: rwheeler@artifact-software.com
> > > skype: ronaldmwheeler
> > > phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Rafael Weing=C3=A4rtner
>


--
Rafael Weing=C3=A4rtner