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From Paul Angus <paul.an...@shapeblue.com>
Subject RE: [DISCUSS] - Releases, Project Management & Funding Thereof
Date Fri, 30 Jun 2017 20:57:48 GMT
Taken from a talk on CloudStack testing [1]...

There are Many, many, MANY permutations of a CloudStack deployment…. 
• Basic / Advanced 
• Local / shared / mixed storage 
• More than 8 common hypervisor types/versions 
• 4 or 5 Management server OS possibilities 
• That’s 144 combinations only looking the basics.

[1] https://www.slideshare.net/ShapeBlue/cloudstack-eu-user-group-trillian?qid=74ff2be0-664c-4bca-a3dc-f30d880ca088&v=&b=&from_search=1

Trillian [2], can create any of those, and multiple at the same time, but the amount of hardware
required to do that means that we have to pick our battles. Running the blueorangutan bot
command '@blueorangutan matrix' in a PR will run the smoke test suite against a PR using 3
environments, one each of KVM, XenServer and vSphere and takes around 8 hours.

But that is only looking for major regressions.  A full component test run takes around 5
days to run and is riddled with bugs in the tests. 

Ultimately these are still of limited scope, few people are as diligent as say Mike T in creating
practical marvin tests for their code / features.

[2] https://github.com/shapeblue/Trillian

Therefore we need hardware to run tests on, but more importantly we need the tests to exist
and work in the first place.  Then we can really do something.



paul.angus@shapeblue.com 
www.shapeblue.com
53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, London  WC2N 4HSUK
@shapeblue
  
 


-----Original Message-----
From: Alex Hitchins [mailto:alex@alexhitchins.com] 
Sent: 30 June 2017 21:34
To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org; dev@cloudstack.apache.org
Subject: RE: [DISCUSS] - Releases, Project Management & Funding Thereof

Consultation with users is something that should definite be done. Canvas as many as possible.

I agree that most people will be running test environments before full rollout of any technology,
I guess see it a little from a CTO eyes - why shortlist a technology that doesn't even endorse
its own releases?

Hopefully we will get some more replies to this thread from other CloudStack enthusiasts to
help shape this conversation.

I'm setting up a new development environment now to get my hands mildly soiled. Going the
Windows route again. Fancy a challenge for the weekend.




Alexander Hitchins
------------------------
E: alex@alexhitchins.com
W: alexhitchins.com
M: 07788 423 969
T: 01892 523 587

-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Wheeler [mailto:rwheeler@artifact-software.com] 
Sent: 30 June 2017 21:08
To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] - Releases, Project Management & Funding Thereof


On 30/06/2017 3:28 PM, Alex Hitchins wrote:
> We can't validate all scenarios no, hence suggesting several common setups as a reasonable
baseline. I like the idea of users posting their hardware and versions as a community endeavour.
>
> I strongly feel there should be an established, physical setup that the release team
have access to in order to validate a release.

This is perhaps something that should be requested from the user community.
I would expect that anyone running Cloudstack in production on a major site would have a test
setup and might be very happy to have the dev team test on their setup.
This would save them a lot of resources at the expense of a bit of time on their test environment.

> If this was some random cat meme generator on GitHub, I'd accept the risk in running
an untested version. For something I'd be running my business on however I'd expect there
being some weight behind the release.
>
> Perhaps I have unrealistic expectations!

Not at all.
Your expectations might be the key to making a pitch to the user community for some help from
people and organizations that are not interested in writing code but have a major interest
in testing.
In addition to access to test equipment, this might actually get new people on the team with
the right skills required to extend the test scripts and test procedure documentation.

Does anyone have a list of the configuration specifications that are required to test a new
release?

Would it help to approach major users of Cloudstack with a direct request for use of their
test equipment and QA staff in return for early access to new releases and testing on their
hardware?

Ron

>
> Alexander Hitchins
> ------------------------
> E: alex@alexhitchins.com
> W: alexhitchins.com
> M: 07788 423 969
> T: 01892 523 587
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ron Wheeler [mailto:rwheeler@artifact-software.com]
> Sent: 30 June 2017 20:13
> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] - Releases, Project Management & Funding 
> Thereof
>
> On 30/06/2017 2:19 PM, Alex Hitchins wrote:
>> Releasing against a defined reference rig would be a very good idea, especially if
we could replicate several.
>>
>> It concerns me slightly that we are building a platform we want to promote people
to deploy in enterprise environments with the caveat 'run at your own risk'.
> There is no choice as near as I can tell.
> It seems that there are too many combinations of hardware, network configurations and
OSs to guarantee that a release will work on all of them and still get a release delivered.
> As Will pointed out, the Release Team does not have access to every combination where
previous releases are in production use, to test the new release candidate.
>
> Currently it may be  not very explicit about what are the fully tested configurations
and from what Will said, I gather that there is no policy saying what the minimum test set
is to declare a release ready to go.
>
> There is no reason preventing a release being tested after release by an end-user or
a developer and adding to the release documentation something to the effect that "Users have
reported that this release has been put into production on XYZ configuration with no modifications."
> This at least gets the release out the door for the 95% of the users that do not have
an XYZ rather than waiting for someone with an XYZ to find time to test it.
>
> It may also encourage companies using or selling XYZs to put up some resources (hardware
and people) dedicated to testing so that they get into the initial release.
>
> Ron
>
>> We need to up our game.
>>
>> 'We' he says, after two years MIA!
>>
>>> On 30 Jun 2017, at 18:41, Ron Wheeler <rwheeler@artifact-software.com>
wrote:
>>>
>>> How much time is there between a feature freeze and the RC being cut.?
>>> Do people know far enough in advance that their feature is in or out and if in
must be ready to go to a RC release by such and such a date?
>>>
>>> Is the use case testing well defined - hardware, configurations, etc.
>>> Can you put out a release that says: "This release has been tested on these configurations
(A, B ,C) but the following configurations/use cases are not yet fully tested and other configuration
may be used at your own risk after your own internal tests have been run successfully."
>>> Is there any concept that "Cloudstack is verified to run on the following configurations
and should also run on these configurations but has not been tested fully. It may run on these
configurations but is not tested during the release cycle."
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>>> On 30/06/2017 1:14 PM, Will Stevens wrote:
>>>> Have not looked at Release Tsar, but worth checking out.
>>>>
>>>> In general, the biggest problem we have with releasing on a 
>>>> schedule is the lack of a CI setup which covers the entire 
>>>> software. Or at least a 'supported' set of features. This means 
>>>> that the release is always bound to a bunch of volunteers getting 
>>>> around to testing their use case. Solidfire and Nuage are pretty good about
getting some CI run on some pieces.
>>>> Trillian is great for covering a portion of the tests, but it 
>>>> currently does not cover the whole software use case. We also need 
>>>> more trillian deployments in the wild to support the CI initiative.
>>>>
>>>> We do need to be stricter about nothing going in after an RC is cut 
>>>> but blockers. The limited CI coverage and the dependence on a few 
>>>> people for testing exasperates this problem.
>>>>
>>>> So there is multiple layers to this. I think someone dedicates to 
>>>> the RM role would help this a lot because they would have a single 
>>>> community focus mandate, so it is in their best interest to 
>>>> implement a flow which does not inhibit their ability to deliver on their
mandate.
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 30, 2017 12:53 PM, "Ron Wheeler"
>>>> <rwheeler@artifact-software.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps a Release Tsar would be a better solution.
>>>>> The RM needs to have absolute control over what is in or out.
>>>>> Reasonable discussion allowed and then a decision once the RM 
>>>>> feels that the case has been fully explored and that a positive vote
is expected.
>>>>>
>>>>> The importance on meeting deadlines needs to have a higher 
>>>>> priority. If a feature/fix can not meet the quality/testing 
>>>>> threshold on time then it gets dropped from the RC and scheduled for
the next release.
>>>>>
>>>>> A few cycles of a bit of ruthlessness should get everyone`s 
>>>>> intention and shorten the release cycle.
>>>>>
>>>>> Meeting release schedules would also reduce the pain of a feature 
>>>>> being deferred.
>>>>> According to the schedule proposed last 
>>>>> year,(https://cwiki.apache.org 
>>>>> /confluence/display/CLOUDSTACK/%5BPROPOSAL%5D+2016-2017+
>>>>> Release+Cycle+and+Calendar)
>>>>>    Cloudstack 4.9.10 (LTS) , 5.04.0 (LTS) as well as 5.1.3.0
>>>>> (maintenance)
>>>>> 5.2.1.0 (Maintenance) were released June 2017.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/CLOUDSTACK/Release+Pro
>>>>> c edure seems to be pretty reasonable. The RM probably needs to 
>>>>> moderate the vote and explain what -1 votes mean to product 
>>>>> credibility if they delay the release. Negative votes because 
>>>>> someone`s new feature did not make it should be ignored.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ron
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 30/06/2017 12:09 PM, Paul Angus wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We could probably split this topic down also....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think I may have mentioned previously 😊 my view on how we have

>>>>>> somewhat shot ourselves in the foot with the release process this

>>>>>> time around.  I think that for the most part, people have been 
>>>>>> well intentioned, and have been trying to 'make this release as 
>>>>>> good as possible' which is counter-productive, as it's been introducing
new blockers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure we have a problem in our 'loosely-agreed' process, 
>>>>>> it's just that repeatedly people have ignored it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WRT a full-time release manager, I suspect that they would find 
>>>>>> that "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink".
>>>>>> They would not be able to compel anyone to 'hurry up and fix that

>>>>>> bug you created', although I guess maybe they could pull a feature
if the author(s) didn't sort it out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because ultimately a release manager, paid or otherwise should 
>>>>>> only be doing what the 'community' decides the release manager's

>>>>>> role is.  So we need to be clear about how we want releases to 
>>>>>> work before worrying about who manages that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Paul Angus
>>>>>>
>>>>>> paul.angus@shapeblue.com
>>>>>> www.shapeblue.com
>>>>>> 53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, London  WC2N 4HSUK @shapeblue
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Alex Hitchins [mailto:alex@alexhitchins.com]
>>>>>> Sent: 30 June 2017 15:05
>>>>>> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
>>>>>> Subject: RE: [DISCUSS] - Releases, Project Management & Funding

>>>>>> Thereof
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am in complete agreement with you. Also on your other reply 
>>>>>> regards to a FT release manager.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If 'we' don't go down this line, more and more people will follow

>>>>>> the Cosmic/Schuberg Philis path or even use Cosmic instead.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm encouraged by your response. Sounds like a few others hold 
>>>>>> the same concerns.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alexander Hitchins
>>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>> E: alex@alexhitchins.com
>>>>>> W: alexhitchins.com
>>>>>> M: 07788 423 969
>>>>>> T: 01892 523 587
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Will Stevens [mailto:williamstevens@gmail.com]
>>>>>> Sent: 30 June 2017 14:54
>>>>>> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
>>>>>> Subject: RE: [DISCUSS] - Releases, Project Management & Funding

>>>>>> Thereof
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, Schuberg Philis, a very active community member forked 
>>>>>> Cosmic off of CloudStack and has been developing their fork for their
needs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I do think we need to have a more consistent front on this 
>>>>>> matter. I think it would make a big difference on the quality, 
>>>>>> release cadence and perception of the project.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 30, 2017 9:48 AM, "Alex Hitchins" <alex@alexhitchins.com>
wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks Will,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I understand it's something that comes with a big bag of 
>>>>>> troublesome worries.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If this topic comes up again in any discussions, I'd be 
>>>>>> interested to hear their thoughts on what I see as the 
>>>>>> alternative; without a dedicated RM/PM/Captain, people will fork

>>>>>> off CS so they can achieve the same thing, and CS ultimately 
>>>>>> looses out long term. I can't remember the name of the fork, but

>>>>>> I think I'm right that a previous large CS contributor/user 
>>>>>> forked off as they wanted greater management in the areas we are
discussing here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alexander Hitchins
>>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>> E: alex@alexhitchins.com
>>>>>> W: alexhitchins.com
>>>>>> M: 07788 423 969
>>>>>> T: 01892 523 587
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Will Stevens [mailto:williamstevens@gmail.com]
>>>>>> Sent: 30 June 2017 14:31
>>>>>> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] - Releases, Project Management & Funding

>>>>>> Thereof
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Apache has been historically against the idea of a cloudstack 
>>>>>> foundation and there is a bit of a pandoras box there which we 
>>>>>> will want to be careful about opening.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Apache added direct contribution, but it was unusable for us 
>>>>>> historically because it required a minimum contribution of 50k, 
>>>>>> which none of us can afford. However, there have been some 
>>>>>> changes to the board recently which are in our favour if we want
to put pressure to lower that to say 5-10k.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even if we do solve for smaller direct contributions, we will 
>>>>>> have to jump through hoops to be able to use those funds for a 
>>>>>> dedicated release manager. I do think this is a possibility if we

>>>>>> manage our needs and communications very well. I had some 
>>>>>> preliminary discussions with some apache foundation folks to 
>>>>>> express these specific concerns. I played off the fact that i 
>>>>>> know they dont want to entertain a cloudstack foundation and 
>>>>>> tried to see if i could get them to move on the direct 
>>>>>> contribution mechanism to make it usable for us, specifically 
>>>>>> with the goal of hiring a full time release manager. I definitely

>>>>>> had their ear and they acknowledged the problems we are facing 
>>>>>> (and currently discussing).  They expressed concerns about being

>>>>>> able to hire someone with the direct contributions, but 
>>>>>> brainstormed a bit to potentially hire an agency who actually does
the hire and they pay the persons salary through the agency with the direct contribution funds.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All to say, there are potential options here, but there be 
>>>>>> dragons, so we have to handle this topic with care.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 30, 2017 9:12 AM, "Ron Wheeler" 
>>>>>> <rwheeler@artifact-software.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.apache.org/foundation/contributing.html says:
>>>>>>> "If you have a specific target or project that you wish to 
>>>>>>> directly support, pleasecontact us 
>>>>>>> <https://www.apache.org/founda 
>>>>>>> tion/contributing.html#Fundraising>and we will do our best
to satisfy your wishes."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1) Is Apache willing to allow projects to set up their own 
>>>>>>> foundations? I doubt but someone would need to check this out.
>>>>>>> Does the PMC have the project charter or the agreement that was

>>>>>>> signed when Cloudstack moved.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2) Has anyone tried to contact Apache about directing support
to 
>>>>>>> Cloudstack.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am not convinced that lack of paid staff is the issue.
>>>>>>> This discussion reminded me of this.
>>>>>>> Q: How many psychiatrists does it take to change a lightbulb
?
>>>>>>> A: Only one, but the lightbulb must want to change
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.lightbulbjokes.com/directory/p.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ron
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 30/06/2017 6:48 AM, Alex Hitchins wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As per Giles's comment to the previous thread, I thought I would
>>>>>>>> start a discussion on the subject to canvas peoples thoughts,

>>>>>>>> opinions
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and fears.
>>>>>>> My question for discussion, is there is any mileage in someone
>>>>>>>> creating a "CloudStack Foundation" as a non-profit entity,

>>>>>>>> funded largely by key CloudStack players with the sole function

>>>>>>>> of employing dedicated resource (part or full time) to handle

>>>>>>>> all releases and other essential 'back office' functions.
The 
>>>>>>>> idea being it's in everyone's interest to chip in a little
each 
>>>>>>>> to fund core project and
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> release management.
>>>>>>> The idea might be utterly irrelevant, pointless and/or straight
up daft.
>>>>>>>> I urge you all to let me know.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Something for you all to think over this weekend.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Alexander Hitchins
>>>>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>>>> E: alex@alexhitchins.com
>>>>>>>> W: alexhitchins.com
>>>>>>>> M: 07788 423 969
>>>>>>>> T: 01892 523 587
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Giles Sirett [mailto:giles.sirett@shapeblue.com]
>>>>>>>> Sent: 30 June 2017 09:51
>>>>>>>> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: JIRA - PLEASE READ
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All
>>>>>>>> This thread seems to have turned into 2 quite different discussions:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. The use (or not) of Jira - which was the original discussion
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2. Ways/means of encouraging (and paying for more structured
>>>>>>>> contributors)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I know that it could be argued that these are related. Could
I 
>>>>>>>> suggest opening up a thread on "release and project management

>>>>>>>> and funding it"  and keeping this thread to the original

>>>>>>>> discussion
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (I will weigh in on both of these at some stage)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kind regards
>>>>>>>> Giles
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> giles.sirett@shapeblue.com
>>>>>>>> www.shapeblue.com
>>>>>>>> 53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, London  WC2N 4HSUK @shapeblue
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Alex Hitchins [mailto:alex@alexhitchins.com]
>>>>>>>> Sent: 29 June 2017 18:49
>>>>>>>> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: JIRA - PLEASE READ
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If it isn't being treated as a product it will be very 
>>>>>>>> impossible to market it as enterprise ready.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I know we all know this.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Similar sized projects under the Apache banner must have
the 
>>>>>>>> same issue, what is the best way to gather experience of
these projects?
>>>>>>>> See how they handle these growing pains.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A cloudstack foundation entity funded by companies earning
from 
>>>>>>>> cloudstack seems a good way forward.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Another tuppence, this is getting expensive.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 29 Jun 2017, at 18:18, Ron Wheeler 
>>>>>>>> <rwheeler@artifact-software.com>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I understand that it is a volunteer organization.
>>>>>>>>> I do not know how many (if any) of the committers and
PMC 
>>>>>>>>> members are funded by their organizations (allowed or
ordered 
>>>>>>>>> to work on Cloudstack during company time) which is often
the 
>>>>>>>>> way that Apache projects get staffed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Clearly it is hard to tell someone who is being funded
by a 
>>>>>>>>> company to fix a problem or who is working on their own
time, 
>>>>>>>>> to do or not do something.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, the PMC has to  build a community
culture 
>>>>>>>>> that is good for the project.
>>>>>>>>> That means describing a vision, planning and enforcing
a 
>>>>>>>>> roadmap, and maintaining a focused project "marketing"
effort.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is a lot of extremely talented individuals working
on 
>>>>>>>>> Cloudstack and it appears to have a very strong and valuable
code-base.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To me the key question is about the PMC and the core
committers'
>>>>>>>>> ability to make Cloudstack a "product" that can compete
for 
>>>>>>>>> market share and acceptance.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is Cloudstack at a point in its development where it
should be 
>>>>>>>>> treated like a product?
>>>>>>>>> - sufficient functionality to compete
>>>>>>>>> - sufficient user base to be a competitor in the market
>>>>>>>>> - production reliability and stability
>>>>>>>>> - business model for supporting companies to justify
their 
>>>>>>>>> continued support
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This may not require more effort but requires different

>>>>>>>>> policies and different activities.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There has to be someone or a PMC  that can say "No".
>>>>>>>>> - This change can not be included in this release because
it 
>>>>>>>>> will delay the release.
>>>>>>>>> - This change adds an unacceptable level of complexity
>>>>>>>>> - This bug fix will have to wait for the next release
because 
>>>>>>>>> it is too late to test it and fix the docs.
>>>>>>>>> - This fix breaks the docs
>>>>>>>>> - The release can not be made until this doc is updated.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Does the core group want to make it a competitive product
or 
>>>>>>>>> is it sufficient for the interested players to continue
in its current form?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ron
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 29/06/2017 9:42 AM, Will Stevens wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I personally don't know how Jira solves any of this,
but 
>>>>>>>>>> assuming it does, fine...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The bigger problem which you have raised is that
CloudStack 
>>>>>>>>>> has zero funding. So we can't hire a project manager,
or a 
>>>>>>>>>> release manager or someone whose job it is to maintain

>>>>>>>>>> documentation. I have been trying to find a way to,
at the 
>>>>>>>>>> very least, fund a full time release manager who
can focus 
>>>>>>>>>> 100% on the project. As the release manager for 4.9,
I know 
>>>>>>>>>> it is a full time job. I did my best, but it is a
ton of work and is hard to stay on top of.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Everyone contributing to CloudStack is donating their
time. 
>>>>>>>>>> They can't make a living off supporting ACS, so every
one is 
>>>>>>>>>> doing their best with the little time they can take
away from 
>>>>>>>>>> their day job or their family life.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, having clear guidelines and sticking to them
helps, but 
>>>>>>>>>> without a solid CI infrastructure backing the project
and 
>>>>>>>>>> improved testing and automation, we will always struggles

>>>>>>>>>> with release schedules and such.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have been involved in this project long enough
to know that 
>>>>>>>>>> all the problems you point out exist, but they are
also not easily solved.
>>>>>>>>>> Obviously we have to work with the initiatives we
have and 
>>>>>>>>>> take small steps towards improvement, but we also
have to be 
>>>>>>>>>> realistic with our expectations because we are counting
on 
>>>>>>>>>> people's generosity to move them forward.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Simplifying moving parts and streamlining the process
will 
>>>>>>>>>> lead to more contribution because there is less barriers
to 
>>>>>>>>>> entry. This one reason why I struggle to see the
value in Jira as it is used today.
>>>>>>>>>> I personally don't understand what value it is giving
us that 
>>>>>>>>>> the github PRs and Issues don't solve.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I will remain open minded and will follow along with
what 
>>>>>>>>>> people think is best, but I think it is worth understanding

>>>>>>>>>> what we are trying to solve for and simplify our
approach in 
>>>>>>>>>> solving it so we can get better systems in place.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 29, 2017 9:17 AM, "Ron Wheeler"
>>>>>>>>>> <rwheeler@artifact-software.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As a real outsider, IMHO Paul is right.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> At times it seems that Cloudstack is a coding
hobby rather 
>>>>>>>>>>> than a project or a production quality product.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Who decides what goes into a release? How does
this affect 
>>>>>>>>>>> the release schedule?
>>>>>>>>>>> Who is responsible for meeting the "published"
roadmap (of 
>>>>>>>>>>> which there seem to be many) of releases?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How is a system admin that is not part of the
project 
>>>>>>>>>>> supposed to plan for upgrade windows?
>>>>>>>>>>> How does one know when a feature, bug fix or
release will be
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> available?
>>>>>>> How does the PMC  manage function creep  in a release, maintain
>>>>>>>>>>> quality and consistency, reject changes that
hurt the 
>>>>>>>>>>> overall vision or add too much complexity?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No one seems to care about documentation but
if someone did, 
>>>>>>>>>>> how would they stop undocumented features or
features that 
>>>>>>>>>>> contradict the documentation from being incorporated?
>>>>>>>>>>> Who makes sure that the documentation is correct
at the time 
>>>>>>>>>>> of the release?
>>>>>>>>>>> Release notes are not much help for someone doing
a new 
>>>>>>>>>>> install or evaluating Cloudstack.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Without a JIRA entry, how does an end-user who
encounters a 
>>>>>>>>>>> problem know that it has been fixed already in
the next release?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Without a JIRA entry, how does the community
comment on a 
>>>>>>>>>>> proposed change before it gets coded?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If changes are going to be accepted without a
JIRA, is there 
>>>>>>>>>>> a definition of a minor fix that does not require
a JIRA?
>>>>>>>>>>> - does not change functionality?
>>>>>>>>>>> - only affects an "edge case" or cleans up an
exception that 
>>>>>>>>>>> is not properly handled?
>>>>>>>>>>> - only improves code readability or future extensibility?
>>>>>>>>>>> - does not affect documentation?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Apache projects that are popular and enjoy wide
support do 
>>>>>>>>>>> have strong management.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There are other examples where great Apache software
is 
>>>>>>>>>>> failing to get recognized because the PMC is
not paying 
>>>>>>>>>>> attention to the product management side of things.
>>>>>>>>>>> I use Apache Jackrabbit which is a quality product
with a 
>>>>>>>>>>> strong technical team supporting it.
>>>>>>>>>>> It has very little following because the documentation
and 
>>>>>>>>>>> marketing collateral is very poor.
>>>>>>>>>>> It gets by because the audience for it is largely
software 
>>>>>>>>>>> developers who can read code and can test features
to work 
>>>>>>>>>>> out the functionality.
>>>>>>>>>>> It would get a lot more attention if they paid
attention to 
>>>>>>>>>>> the product management side of the project.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cloudstack needs to avoid this situation and
unfortunately 
>>>>>>>>>>> this takes effort and some discipline.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ron
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 29/06/2017 8:03 AM, Will Stevens wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Why are we still using jira instead of the
PRs for that 
>>>>>>>>>>>> communication? Can we not use issues in github
now instead 
>>>>>>>>>>>> of jira if someone needs to open an issue
but does not yet 
>>>>>>>>>>>> have code to contribute. If not, jira could
still be used for that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think duplicating data between jira and
the PR is kind of 
>>>>>>>>>>>> pointless. I feel like the github PRs and
the cide going in 
>>>>>>>>>>>> should be the source of truth, not a random
third party tool.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> For the 4.9 release notes, i built a tool
to generate the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> release notes from the PRs merged in that
release. I think 
>>>>>>>>>>>> that is easier and more accurate than depending
on jira 
>>>>>>>>>>>> since it does not track the actual code tree.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thats my 0.02$.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 29, 2017 5:25 AM, "Paul Angus" 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <paul.angus@shapeblue.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Such a view of CloudStack is what holds CloudStack
back.
>>>>>>>>>>>> It stops users/operators from having any
chance of 
>>>>>>>>>>>> understanding what CloudStack does and how
it does it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Code for code's sake is no use to anyone.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jira is about communication between developers
and to everyone else.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul Angus
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> paul.angus@shapeblue.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> www.shapeblue.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> 53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, London 
WC2N 4HSUK 
>>>>>>>>>>>> @shapeblue
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Daan Hoogland [mailto:daan.hoogland@gmail.com]
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 29 June 2017 10:14
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: dev <dev@cloudstack.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: JIRA - PLEASE READ
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 11:06 AM, Paul Angus

>>>>>>>>>>>> <paul.angus@shapeblue.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> + Release notes will be impossible to create
without a 
>>>>>>>>>>>> + proper Jira
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> history.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And no one will know what has gone into CloudStack.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No they are not mr Grumpy. they should
be base on the code 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> hence on git, not jira. I do not appose to
the use of Jira 
>>>>>>>>>>>> but it is not required for good coding practices
and as we 
>>>>>>>>>>>> are not and will not function as a corporation,
jira is an 
>>>>>>>>>>>> extra for those that grave for it. not a
requirement.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Daan
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>> --
>>> Ron Wheeler
>>> President
>>> Artifact Software Inc
>>> email: rwheeler@artifact-software.com
>>> skype: ronaldmwheeler
>>> phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102
>>>

-- 
Ron Wheeler
President
Artifact Software Inc
email: rwheeler@artifact-software.com
skype: ronaldmwheeler
phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102


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