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From Will Stevens <williamstev...@gmail.com>
Subject RE: JIRA - PLEASE READ
Date Fri, 30 Jun 2017 13:09:35 GMT
Back to jira. I personally have never searched jira for an issue. I search
github prs for issues often though to see what code is actually pending for
different issues. I dont think i am alone in that.

My stance is that unless we have a solid reason for using jira which we can
not solve with github at this point, we should reconsider our use of jira.

Now that we have gitbox setup, i think we have the ability to use Issues as
well as PRs. I think it is much wiser to keep the discussion around the
code much closer to the code and not in a 3rd system.  By using jira we
encourage people who are contributing to the discussion to never look at
the code because it is not available in the same screen. I think it is much
more useful to discuss changes with the context of the code at your finger
tips.  Comment on specific lines of code, review the conformance to the
style guide, etc...

Also, I think the argument that jira somehow helps with release notes is
being made by people who have never created the release notes. When using
jira, you are assuming that everyone has jira in their workflow and the
status of a ticket is always right. This is almost never the case and there
is a huge amount of man effort to try to manage that delta.  My colleague,
Pierre-Luc Dion, has historically created the majority of release notes up
until 4.9,  when I scripted based on the PRs actually merged (as I was the
4.9 RM). My script tried to associate jira tickets if it could find them,
but not every piece of code merged had a ticket (which will always be the
case). There will always be a PR for a change, there wont always be a jira
ticket. That alone should mean that we should be doing release notes based
on the PRs and not the jira tickets. Also, Pierre-Luc does not have the
time to spend a week building the release notes anymore for every release,
he is a busy man...

Anyway, these are my two cents. As always I am open to other opinions and
points of view. I would encourage us to try to understand and pinpoint what
we think adding jira to the flow actually achieves. Now that we have the
gitbox integration I feel like we should move the vast majority of the
development and issue related workflows closer to the code.

Sorry for the wall of text...

On Jun 30, 2017 6:52 AM, "Alex Hitchins" <alex@alexhitchins.com> wrote:

Hello,

I've created a DISCUSS thread to... discuss this subject separately from
the original Jira issue.

Sorry Paul for hijacking your Jira rant.


Alexander Hitchins
------------------------
E: alex@alexhitchins.com
W: alexhitchins.com
M: 07788 423 969
T: 01892 523 587

-----Original Message-----
From: Rafael Weingärtner [mailto:rafaelweingartner@gmail.com]
Sent: 29 June 2017 20:41
To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
Subject: Re: JIRA - PLEASE READ

That is what I am saying. Apache can (and does) handle donations, and there
have been discussions about donations that can be directed to projects at
the donation time (someone that knows about the topic could provide some
help here?).


So, the foundation part looks covered for me....I think we need something
else.

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 3:35 PM, Marty Godsey <marty@gonsource.com> wrote:

> Rafael,
>
> I agree. I am not saying move away from Apache.. I am saying setup a
> "foundation" to handle donations and even development management..
>
> Regards,
> Marty Godsey
> Principal Engineer
> nSource Solutions, LLC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rafael Weingärtner [mailto:rafaelweingartner@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 3:28 PM
> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
> Subject: Re: JIRA - PLEASE READ
>
> ACS is an Apache project, not a foundation per se; donation goes to
Apache.
> I know that there is some discussion/work to create a way for donating
> things (not just money) to projects, but I do not know how that is going.
>
> I do not think we need to create other foundation and move away from
> Apache (because that is what this move would look like....)
>
> But still, I wonder, even if we had a CloudStack foundation, would
> that make organizations that rely on it to donate/contribute more
> actively? Is that the real problem?
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 3:20 PM, Marty Godsey <marty@gonsource.com> wrote:
>
> > Alex,
> >
> > I agree.. The only "good" way that we will get more adoption is to
> > treat it like an Enterprise product. But that would require investment.
> > Investment with money, not just time.
> >
> > As an example, I use pfSense alot in my projects. If I put in a
> > pfSense router, I take 2-5% (depends on scope) of the GDM and donate
> > to the pfSense project. I do this because pfSense makes me a lot of
> > money and I want it to get better.. The only way it will get better
> > is by supporting it. And even if I was a coder, "supporting" it with
> > code
> only goes so far.
> >
> > And as mentioned, we create a CloudStack Foundation that is a 501C
> > corp so it's a non-profit and tax deductible for people donating.
> >
> > So the next question is who would we speak with to get this ball
> > rolling or even a discussion started?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Marty Godsey
> > Principal Engineer
> > nSource Solutions, LLC
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Alex Hitchins [mailto:alex@alexhitchins.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 1:49 PM
> > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: JIRA - PLEASE READ
> >
> > If it isn't being treated as a product it will be very impossible to
> > market it as enterprise ready.
> >
> > I know we all know this.
> >
> > Similar sized projects under the Apache banner must have the same
> > issue, what is the best way to gather experience of these projects?
> > See how they handle these growing pains.
> >
> > A cloudstack foundation entity funded by companies earning from
> > cloudstack seems a good way forward.
> >
> > Another tuppence, this is getting expensive.
> >
> >
> >
> > > On 29 Jun 2017, at 18:18, Ron Wheeler
> > > <rwheeler@artifact-software.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > I understand that it is a volunteer organization.
> > > I do not know how many (if any) of the committers and PMC members
> > > are
> > funded by their organizations (allowed or ordered to work on
> > Cloudstack during company time) which is often the way that Apache
> > projects get staffed.
> > >
> > > Clearly it is hard to tell someone who is being funded by a
> > > company to
> > fix a problem or who is working on their own time, to do or not do
> > something.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, the PMC has to  build a community culture that
> > > is
> > good for the project.
> > > That means describing a vision, planning and enforcing a roadmap,
> > > and
> > maintaining a focused project "marketing" effort.
> > >
> > > There is a lot of extremely talented individuals working on
> > > Cloudstack
> > and it appears to have a very strong and valuable code-base.
> > >
> > > To me the key question is about the PMC and the core committers'
> > > ability
> > to make Cloudstack a "product" that can compete for market share and
> > acceptance.
> > >
> > > Is Cloudstack at a point in its development where it should be
> > > treated
> > like a product?
> > > - sufficient functionality to compete
> > > - sufficient user base to be a competitor in the market
> > > - production reliability and stability
> > > - business model for supporting companies to justify their
> > > continued support
> > >
> > > This may not require more effort but requires different policies
> > > and
> > different activities.
> > >
> > > There has to be someone or a PMC  that can say "No".
> > > - This change can not be included in this release because it will
> > > delay
> > the release.
> > > - This change adds an unacceptable level of complexity
> > > - This bug fix will have to wait for the next release because it
> > > is too
> > late to test it and fix the docs.
> > > - This fix breaks the docs
> > > - The release can not be made until this doc is updated.
> > >
> > > Does the core group want to make it a competitive product or is it
> > sufficient for the interested players to continue in its current form?
> > >
> > > Ron
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >> On 29/06/2017 9:42 AM, Will Stevens wrote:
> > >> I personally don't know how Jira solves any of this, but assuming
> > >> it does, fine...
> > >>
> > >> The bigger problem which you have raised is that CloudStack has
> > >> zero funding. So we can't hire a project manager, or a release
> > >> manager or someone whose job it is to maintain documentation. I
> > >> have been trying to find a way to, at the very least, fund a full
> > >> time release manager who can focus 100% on the project. As the
> > >> release manager for 4.9, I know it is a full time job. I did my
> > >> best, but it is a ton of work and is hard to stay on top of.
> > >>
> > >> Everyone contributing to CloudStack is donating their time. They
> > >> can't make a living off supporting ACS, so every one is doing
> > >> their best with the little time they can take away from their day
> > >> job or
> > their family life.
> > >>
> > >> Yes, having clear guidelines and sticking to them helps, but
> > >> without a solid CI infrastructure backing the project and
> > >> improved testing and automation, we will always struggles with
> > >> release schedules and
> > such.
> > >>
> > >> I have been involved in this project long enough to know that all
> > >> the problems you point out exist, but they are also not easily
solved.
> > >> Obviously we have to work with the initiatives we have and take
> > >> small steps towards improvement, but we also have to be realistic
> > >> with our expectations because we are counting on people's
> > >> generosity to move
> > them forward.
> > >>
> > >> Simplifying moving parts and streamlining the process will lead
> > >> to more contribution because there is less barriers to entry.
> > >> This one reason why I struggle to see the value in Jira as it is
used today.
> > >> I personally don't understand what value it is giving us that the
> > >> github PRs and Issues don't solve.
> > >>
> > >> I will remain open minded and will follow along with what people
> > >> think is best, but I think it is worth understanding what we are
> > >> trying to solve for and simplify our approach in solving it so we
> > >> can get better systems in place.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Jun 29, 2017 9:17 AM, "Ron Wheeler"
> > >> <rwheeler@artifact-software.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> As a real outsider, IMHO Paul is right.
> > >>>
> > >>> At times it seems that Cloudstack is a coding hobby rather than
> > >>> a project or a production quality product.
> > >>>
> > >>> Who decides what goes into a release? How does this affect the
> > >>> release schedule?
> > >>> Who is responsible for meeting the "published" roadmap (of which
> > >>> there seem to be many) of releases?
> > >>>
> > >>> How is a system admin that is not part of the project supposed
> > >>> to plan for upgrade windows?
> > >>> How does one know when a feature, bug fix or release will be
> available?
> > >>>
> > >>> How does the PMC  manage function creep  in a release, maintain
> > >>> quality and consistency, reject changes that hurt the overall
> > >>> vision or add too much complexity?
> > >>>
> > >>> No one seems to care about documentation but if someone did, how
> > >>> would they stop undocumented features or features that
> > >>> contradict the documentation from being incorporated?
> > >>> Who makes sure that the documentation is correct at the time of
> > >>> the release?
> > >>> Release notes are not much help for someone doing a new install
> > >>> or evaluating Cloudstack.
> > >>>
> > >>> Without a JIRA entry, how does an end-user who encounters a
> > >>> problem know that it has been fixed already in the next release?
> > >>>
> > >>> Without a JIRA entry, how does the community comment on a
> > >>> proposed change before it gets coded?
> > >>>
> > >>> If changes are going to be accepted without a JIRA, is there a
> > >>> definition of a minor fix that does not require a JIRA?
> > >>> - does not change functionality?
> > >>> - only affects an "edge case" or cleans up an exception that is
> > >>> not properly handled?
> > >>> - only improves code readability or future extensibility?
> > >>> - does not affect documentation?
> > >>>
> > >>> Apache projects that are popular and enjoy wide support do have
> > >>> strong management.
> > >>>
> > >>> There are other examples where great Apache software is failing
> > >>> to get recognized because the PMC is not paying attention to the
> > >>> product management side of things.
> > >>> I use Apache Jackrabbit which is a quality product with a strong
> > >>> technical team supporting it.
> > >>> It has very little following because the documentation and
> > >>> marketing collateral is very poor.
> > >>> It gets by because the audience for it is largely software
> > >>> developers who can read code and can test features to work out
> > >>> the
> > functionality.
> > >>> It would get a lot more attention if they paid attention to the
> > >>> product management side of the project.
> > >>>
> > >>> Cloudstack needs to avoid this situation and unfortunately this
> > >>> takes effort and some discipline.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Ron
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>> On 29/06/2017 8:03 AM, Will Stevens wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Why are we still using jira instead of the PRs for that
> > >>>> communication? Can we not use issues in github now instead of
> > >>>> jira if someone needs to open an issue but does not yet have
> > >>>> code to contribute. If not, jira could still be used for that.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I think duplicating data between jira and the PR is kind of
> > >>>> pointless. I feel like the github PRs and the cide going in
> > >>>> should be the source of truth, not a random third party tool.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> For the 4.9 release notes, i built a tool to generate the
> > >>>> release notes from the PRs merged in that release. I think that
> > >>>> is easier and more accurate than depending on jira since it
> > >>>> does not track the actual code tree.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thats my 0.02$.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Jun 29, 2017 5:25 AM, "Paul Angus"
> > >>>> <paul.angus@shapeblue.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Such a view of CloudStack is what holds CloudStack back.
> > >>>> It stops users/operators from having any chance of
> > >>>> understanding what CloudStack does and how it does it.
> > >>>> Code for code's sake is no use to anyone.
> > >>>> Jira is about communication between developers and to everyone
else.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Kind regards,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Paul Angus
> > >>>>
> > >>>> paul.angus@shapeblue.com
> > >>>> www.shapeblue.com
> > >>>> 53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, London  WC2N 4HSUK @shapeblue
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: Daan Hoogland [mailto:daan.hoogland@gmail.com]
> > >>>> Sent: 29 June 2017 10:14
> > >>>> To: dev <dev@cloudstack.apache.org>
> > >>>> Subject: Re: JIRA - PLEASE READ
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 11:06 AM, Paul Angus
> > >>>> <paul.angus@shapeblue.com>
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> + Release notes will be impossible to create without a proper
> > >>>>> + Jira
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> history.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> And no one will know what has gone into CloudStack.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> No they are not mr Grumpy. they should be base on the code
> > >>>> anyway, hence on git, not jira. I do not appose to the use of
> > >>>> Jira but it is not required for good coding practices and as we
> > >>>> are not and will not function as a corporation, jira is an
> > >>>> extra for those that grave for it. not a requirement.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> --
> > >>>> Daan
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Ron Wheeler
> > >>> President
> > >>> Artifact Software Inc
> > >>> email: rwheeler@artifact-software.com
> > >>> skype: ronaldmwheeler
> > >>> phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >
> > > --
> > > Ron Wheeler
> > > President
> > > Artifact Software Inc
> > > email: rwheeler@artifact-software.com
> > > skype: ronaldmwheeler
> > > phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Rafael Weingärtner
>



--
Rafael Weingärtner

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