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From Marty Godsey <ma...@gonsource.com>
Subject RE: ***UNCHECKED*** Re: [DISCUSS] - Releases, Project Management & Funding Thereof
Date Fri, 30 Jun 2017 19:22:27 GMT
"" Would breaking Cloudstack into separately modules that are separately released by different
teams make things more manageable?""


Please don’t do this. This is basically OpenStack at that point. I would write more on this
but ZI am on a phone call.. :)  I just wanted say I don’t think that is a good idea since
the fact that Cloudtsack IS one project is one of its strengths..

Regards,
Marty Godsey
Principal Engineer
nSource Solutions, LLC

-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Wheeler [mailto:rwheeler@artifact-software.com] 
Sent: Friday, June 30, 2017 2:54 PM
To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
Subject: Re: ***UNCHECKED*** Re: [DISCUSS] - Releases, Project Management & Funding Thereof

If the plan is to do several releases each year, something has to change in the process.

Any idea about what tasks took up most of the time?

Were there any specific issues that ate up more time than you expected.

Would breaking Cloudstack into separately modules that are separately released by different
teams make things more manageable?
At some point, one would expect that the APIs would get stabilized so that modules could be
upgraded without affecting the whole system.
Obviously some changes would require mods to more than one module but depending on how one
defines the releasable packages, many changes should not.
This may get into the case where part of the current releases on support part of the functionality
that the end user needs and they may have to wait a week or 2 to find a set of packages that
fully supports their particular case but in the meantime, new functionality can be released
to the rest of the user community that does not need this case.
This would allow bug fix releases to get out the door quicker if they only affected one module.
It would also reduce the testing of each release by a lot and might tests to be more complete
on key areas.

Ron


On 30/06/2017 1:48 PM, Will Stevens wrote:
> I am not doing much right now because our company has many other 
> things on the go.
>
> For about the first 6 months of 2016 CloudOps donated my time full 
> time to act as the release manager of 4.9. That is not something we or 
> I can sustain. Which is part of the problem.
>
> On Jun 30, 2017 1:28 PM, "Ron Wheeler" 
> <rwheeler@artifact-software.com>
> wrote:
>
>> How many companies are funding staff now to work on Cloudstack? How 
>> much time?
>> How many FTEs does that come to if one adds it all up?
>>
>> It is harder to get people who are working on their own time to do 
>> administrative tasks on a tight schedule.
>>
>> If someone is working for a company that is expecting the person to 
>> be doing "cloudstack stuff", it may be possible to convince the 
>> company to dedicate part of that person's time to release management.
>>
>> A RM doing it all may be harder to fund/organize than a Release Team. 
>> Not all of the tasks have to be done in sequence or by one person.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>> On 30/06/2017 1:13 PM, Wido den Hollander wrote:
>>
>>> Op 30 juni 2017 om 18:09 schreef Paul Angus <paul.angus@shapeblue.com>:
>>>>
>>>> We could probably split this topic down also....
>>>>
>>>> I think I may have mentioned previously 😊 my view on how we have 
>>>> somewhat shot ourselves in the foot with the release process this 
>>>> time around.  I think that for the most part, people have been well 
>>>> intentioned, and have been trying to 'make this release as good as 
>>>> possible' which is counter-productive, as it's been introducing new blockers.
>>>>
>>>> True. But still, somebody who dedicated 5 days a week on releases 
>>>> and
>>> keeping track of the project is still very welcome I think.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure we have a problem in our 'loosely-agreed' process, it's 
>>> just
>>>> that repeatedly people have ignored it.
>>>>
>>>> I wouldn't say ignore it, but maybe forgotten about the process 
>>>> with all
>>> the best intentions.
>>>
>>> WRT a full-time release manager, I suspect that they would find that 
>>> "you
>>>> can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink".  They 
>>>> would not be able to compel anyone to 'hurry up and fix that bug 
>>>> you created', although I guess maybe they could pull a feature if the author(s)
didn't sort it out.
>>>>
>>>> Because ultimately a release manager, paid or otherwise should only 
>>>> be doing what the 'community' decides the release manager's role 
>>>> is.  So we need to be clear about how we want releases to work 
>>>> before worrying about who manages that.
>>>>
>>>> Somebody who reverts a PR or commit to get to a proper release is
>>> probably a good thing. RM is a busy task and done in spare time. 
>>> That's not always easy.
>>>
>>> Other projects like Ceph have a dedicated RM who is busy the whole 
>>> week with just the new release.
>>>
>>> We could use such a person, but we would need the funding.
>>>
>>> How much would that cost? Well, you need to keep the overhead down. 
>>> A few companies donating 10k per year should probably allow you to hire a person.
>>>
>>> Wido
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>>> Paul Angus
>>>>
>>>> paul.angus@shapeblue.com
>>>> www.shapeblue.com
>>>> 53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, London  WC2N 4HSUK @shapeblue
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Alex Hitchins [mailto:alex@alexhitchins.com]
>>>> Sent: 30 June 2017 15:05
>>>> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
>>>> Subject: RE: [DISCUSS] - Releases, Project Management & Funding Thereof
>>>>
>>>> I am in complete agreement with you. Also on your other reply regards to
>>>> a FT release manager.
>>>>
>>>> If 'we' don't go down this line, more and more people will follow the
>>>> Cosmic/Schuberg Philis path or even use Cosmic instead.
>>>>
>>>> I'm encouraged by your response. Sounds like a few others hold the same
>>>> concerns.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Alexander Hitchins
>>>> ------------------------
>>>> E: alex@alexhitchins.com
>>>> W: alexhitchins.com
>>>> M: 07788 423 969
>>>> T: 01892 523 587
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Will Stevens [mailto:williamstevens@gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: 30 June 2017 14:54
>>>> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
>>>> Subject: RE: [DISCUSS] - Releases, Project Management & Funding Thereof
>>>>
>>>> Yes, Schuberg Philis, a very active community member forked Cosmic off
>>>> of CloudStack and has been developing their fork for their needs.
>>>>
>>>> I do think we need to have a more consistent front on this matter. I
>>>> think it would make a big difference on the quality, release cadence and
>>>> perception of the project.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 30, 2017 9:48 AM, "Alex Hitchins" <alex@alexhitchins.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Will,
>>>>
>>>> I understand it's something that comes with a big bag of troublesome
>>>> worries.
>>>>
>>>> If this topic comes up again in any discussions, I'd be interested to
>>>> hear their thoughts on what I see as the alternative; without a dedicated
>>>> RM/PM/Captain, people will fork off CS so they can achieve the same thing,
>>>> and CS ultimately looses out long term. I can't remember the name of the
>>>> fork, but I think I'm right that a previous large CS contributor/user
>>>> forked off as they wanted greater management in the areas we are discussing
>>>> here.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Alexander Hitchins
>>>> ------------------------
>>>> E: alex@alexhitchins.com
>>>> W: alexhitchins.com
>>>> M: 07788 423 969
>>>> T: 01892 523 587
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Will Stevens [mailto:williamstevens@gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: 30 June 2017 14:31
>>>> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] - Releases, Project Management & Funding Thereof
>>>>
>>>> Apache has been historically against the idea of a cloudstack foundation
>>>> and there is a bit of a pandoras box there which we will want to be careful
>>>> about opening.
>>>>
>>>> Apache added direct contribution, but it was unusable for us
>>>> historically because it required a minimum contribution of 50k, which none
>>>> of us can afford. However, there have been some changes to the board
>>>> recently which are in our favour if we want to put pressure to lower that
>>>> to say 5-10k.
>>>>
>>>> Even if we do solve for smaller direct contributions, we will have to
>>>> jump through hoops to be able to use those funds for a dedicated release
>>>> manager. I do think this is a possibility if we manage our needs and
>>>> communications very well. I had some preliminary discussions with some
>>>> apache foundation folks to express these specific concerns. I played off
>>>> the fact that i know they dont want to entertain a cloudstack foundation
>>>> and tried to see if i could get them to move on the direct contribution
>>>> mechanism to make it usable for us, specifically with the goal of hiring
a
>>>> full time release manager. I definitely had their ear and they acknowledged
>>>> the problems we are facing (and currently discussing).  They expressed
>>>> concerns about being able to hire someone with the direct contributions,
>>>> but brainstormed a bit to potentially hire an agency who actually does the
>>>> hire and they pay the persons salary through the agency with the direct
>>>> contribution funds.
>>>>
>>>> All to say, there are potential options here, but there be dragons, so
>>>> we have to handle this topic with care.
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 30, 2017 9:12 AM, "Ron Wheeler" <rwheeler@artifact-software.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.apache.org/foundation/contributing.html says:
>>>>> "If you have a specific target or project that you wish to directly
>>>>> support, pleasecontact us <https://www.apache.org/founda
>>>>> tion/contributing.html#Fundraising>and we will do our best to satisfy
>>>>> your wishes."
>>>>>
>>>>> 1) Is Apache willing to allow projects to set up their own
>>>>> foundations? I doubt but someone would need to check this out.
>>>>> Does the PMC have the project charter or the agreement that was signed
>>>>> when Cloudstack moved.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) Has anyone tried to contact Apache about directing support to
>>>>> Cloudstack.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not convinced that lack of paid staff is the issue.
>>>>> This discussion reminded me of this.
>>>>> Q: How many psychiatrists does it take to change a lightbulb ?
>>>>> A: Only one, but the lightbulb must want to change
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.lightbulbjokes.com/directory/p.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ron
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 30/06/2017 6:48 AM, Alex Hitchins wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> As per Giles's comment to the previous thread, I thought I would
>>>>>> start a discussion on the subject to canvas peoples thoughts,
>>>>>> opinions
>>>>>>
>>>>> and fears.
>>>>> My question for discussion, is there is any mileage in someone
>>>>>> creating a "CloudStack Foundation" as a non-profit entity, funded
>>>>>> largely by key CloudStack players with the sole function of employing
>>>>>> dedicated resource (part or full time) to handle all releases and
>>>>>> other essential 'back office' functions. The idea being it's in
>>>>>> everyone's interest to chip in a little each to fund core project
and
>>>>>>
>>>>> release management.
>>>>> The idea might be utterly irrelevant, pointless and/or straight up daft.
>>>>>> I urge you all to let me know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Something for you all to think over this weekend.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alexander Hitchins
>>>>>> ------------------------
>>>>>> E: alex@alexhitchins.com
>>>>>> W: alexhitchins.com
>>>>>> M: 07788 423 969
>>>>>> T: 01892 523 587
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Giles Sirett [mailto:giles.sirett@shapeblue.com]
>>>>>> Sent: 30 June 2017 09:51
>>>>>> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
>>>>>> Subject: RE: JIRA - PLEASE READ
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All
>>>>>> This thread seems to have turned into 2 quite different discussions:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. The use (or not) of Jira - which was the original discussion
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. Ways/means of encouraging (and paying for more structured
>>>>>> contributors)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know that it could be argued that these are related. Could I
>>>>>> suggest opening up a thread on "release and project management and
>>>>>> funding it"  and keeping this thread to the original discussion
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (I will weigh in on both of these at some stage)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kind regards
>>>>>> Giles
>>>>>>
>>>>>> giles.sirett@shapeblue.com
>>>>>> www.shapeblue.com
>>>>>> 53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, London  WC2N 4HSUK @shapeblue
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Alex Hitchins [mailto:alex@alexhitchins.com]
>>>>>> Sent: 29 June 2017 18:49
>>>>>> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
>>>>>> Subject: Re: JIRA - PLEASE READ
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If it isn't being treated as a product it will be very impossible
to
>>>>>> market it as enterprise ready.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know we all know this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Similar sized projects under the Apache banner must have the same
>>>>>> issue, what is the best way to gather experience of these projects?
>>>>>> See how they handle these growing pains.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A cloudstack foundation entity funded by companies earning from
>>>>>> cloudstack seems a good way forward.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another tuppence, this is getting expensive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 29 Jun 2017, at 18:18, Ron Wheeler
>>>>>> <rwheeler@artifact-software.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I understand that it is a volunteer organization.
>>>>>>> I do not know how many (if any) of the committers and PMC members
>>>>>>> are funded by their organizations (allowed or ordered to work
on
>>>>>>> Cloudstack during company time) which is often the way that Apache
>>>>>>> projects get staffed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Clearly it is hard to tell someone who is being funded by a company
>>>>>>> to fix a problem or who is working on their own time, to do or
not
>>>>>>> do something.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the other hand, the PMC has to  build a community culture
that is
>>>>>>> good for the project.
>>>>>>> That means describing a vision, planning and enforcing a roadmap,
>>>>>>> and maintaining a focused project "marketing" effort.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is a lot of extremely talented individuals working on
>>>>>>> Cloudstack and it appears to have a very strong and valuable
>>>>>>> code-base.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To me the key question is about the PMC and the core committers'
>>>>>>> ability to make Cloudstack a "product" that can compete for market
>>>>>>> share and acceptance.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is Cloudstack at a point in its development where it should be
>>>>>>> treated like a product?
>>>>>>> - sufficient functionality to compete
>>>>>>> - sufficient user base to be a competitor in the market
>>>>>>> - production reliability and stability
>>>>>>> - business model for supporting companies to justify their continued
>>>>>>> support
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This may not require more effort but requires different policies
and
>>>>>>> different activities.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There has to be someone or a PMC  that can say "No".
>>>>>>> - This change can not be included in this release because it
will
>>>>>>> delay the release.
>>>>>>> - This change adds an unacceptable level of complexity
>>>>>>> - This bug fix will have to wait for the next release because
it is
>>>>>>> too late to test it and fix the docs.
>>>>>>> - This fix breaks the docs
>>>>>>> - The release can not be made until this doc is updated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does the core group want to make it a competitive product or
is it
>>>>>>> sufficient for the interested players to continue in its current
form?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ron
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 29/06/2017 9:42 AM, Will Stevens wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I personally don't know how Jira solves any of this, but
assuming
>>>>>>>> it does, fine...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The bigger problem which you have raised is that CloudStack
has
>>>>>>>> zero funding. So we can't hire a project manager, or a release
>>>>>>>> manager or someone whose job it is to maintain documentation.
I
>>>>>>>> have been trying to find a way to, at the very least, fund
a full
>>>>>>>> time release manager who can focus 100% on the project. As
the
>>>>>>>> release manager for 4.9, I know it is a full time job. I
did my
>>>>>>>> best, but it is a ton of work and is hard to stay on top
of.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Everyone contributing to CloudStack is donating their time.
They
>>>>>>>> can't make a living off supporting ACS, so every one is doing
their
>>>>>>>> best with the little time they can take away from their day
job or
>>>>>>>> their family life.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, having clear guidelines and sticking to them helps,
but
>>>>>>>> without a solid CI infrastructure backing the project and
improved
>>>>>>>> testing and automation, we will always struggles with release
>>>>>>>> schedules and such.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have been involved in this project long enough to know
that all
>>>>>>>> the problems you point out exist, but they are also not easily
>>>>>>>> solved.
>>>>>>>> Obviously we have to work with the initiatives we have and
take
>>>>>>>> small steps towards improvement, but we also have to be realistic
>>>>>>>> with our expectations because we are counting on people's
>>>>>>>> generosity to move them forward.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Simplifying moving parts and streamlining the process will
lead to
>>>>>>>> more contribution because there is less barriers to entry.
This one
>>>>>>>> reason why I struggle to see the value in Jira as it is used
today.
>>>>>>>> I personally don't understand what value it is giving us
that the
>>>>>>>> github PRs and Issues don't solve.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I will remain open minded and will follow along with what
people
>>>>>>>> think is best, but I think it is worth understanding what
we are
>>>>>>>> trying to solve for and simplify our approach in solving
it so we
>>>>>>>> can get better systems in place.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jun 29, 2017 9:17 AM, "Ron Wheeler"
>>>>>>>> <rwheeler@artifact-software.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As a real outsider, IMHO Paul is right.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> At times it seems that Cloudstack is a coding hobby rather
than a
>>>>>>>>> project or a production quality product.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Who decides what goes into a release? How does this affect
the
>>>>>>>>> release schedule?
>>>>>>>>> Who is responsible for meeting the "published" roadmap
(of which
>>>>>>>>> there seem to be many) of releases?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How is a system admin that is not part of the project
supposed to
>>>>>>>>> plan for upgrade windows?
>>>>>>>>> How does one know when a feature, bug fix or release
will be
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> available?
>>>>> How does the PMC  manage function creep  in a release, maintain
>>>>>>>>> quality and consistency, reject changes that hurt the
overall
>>>>>>>>> vision or add too much complexity?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No one seems to care about documentation but if someone
did, how
>>>>>>>>> would they stop undocumented features or features that
contradict
>>>>>>>>> the documentation from being incorporated?
>>>>>>>>> Who makes sure that the documentation is correct at the
time of
>>>>>>>>> the release?
>>>>>>>>> Release notes are not much help for someone doing a new
install or
>>>>>>>>> evaluating Cloudstack.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Without a JIRA entry, how does an end-user who encounters
a
>>>>>>>>> problem know that it has been fixed already in the next
release?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Without a JIRA entry, how does the community comment
on a proposed
>>>>>>>>> change before it gets coded?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If changes are going to be accepted without a JIRA, is
there a
>>>>>>>>> definition of a minor fix that does not require a JIRA?
>>>>>>>>> - does not change functionality?
>>>>>>>>> - only affects an "edge case" or cleans up an exception
that is
>>>>>>>>> not properly handled?
>>>>>>>>> - only improves code readability or future extensibility?
>>>>>>>>> - does not affect documentation?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Apache projects that are popular and enjoy wide support
do have
>>>>>>>>> strong management.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are other examples where great Apache software
is failing to
>>>>>>>>> get recognized because the PMC is not paying attention
to the
>>>>>>>>> product management side of things.
>>>>>>>>> I use Apache Jackrabbit which is a quality product with
a strong
>>>>>>>>> technical team supporting it.
>>>>>>>>> It has very little following because the documentation
and
>>>>>>>>> marketing collateral is very poor.
>>>>>>>>> It gets by because the audience for it is largely software
>>>>>>>>> developers who can read code and can test features to
work out the
>>>>>>>>> functionality.
>>>>>>>>> It would get a lot more attention if they paid attention
to the
>>>>>>>>> product management side of the project.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cloudstack needs to avoid this situation and unfortunately
this
>>>>>>>>> takes effort and some discipline.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ron
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 29/06/2017 8:03 AM, Will Stevens wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why are we still using jira instead of the PRs for
that
>>>>>>>>>> communication? Can we not use issues in github now
instead of
>>>>>>>>>> jira if someone needs to open an issue but does not
yet have code
>>>>>>>>>> to contribute. If not, jira could still be used for
that.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think duplicating data between jira and the PR
is kind of
>>>>>>>>>> pointless. I feel like the github PRs and the cide
going in
>>>>>>>>>> should be the source of truth, not a random third
party tool.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For the 4.9 release notes, i built a tool to generate
the release
>>>>>>>>>> notes from the PRs merged in that release. I think
that is easier
>>>>>>>>>> and more accurate than depending on jira since it
does not track
>>>>>>>>>> the actual code tree.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thats my 0.02$.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 29, 2017 5:25 AM, "Paul Angus" <paul.angus@shapeblue.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Such a view of CloudStack is what holds CloudStack
back.
>>>>>>>>>> It stops users/operators from having any chance of
understanding
>>>>>>>>>> what CloudStack does and how it does it.
>>>>>>>>>> Code for code's sake is no use to anyone.
>>>>>>>>>> Jira is about communication between developers and
to everyone
>>>>>>>>>> else.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Paul Angus
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> paul.angus@shapeblue.com
>>>>>>>>>> www.shapeblue.com
>>>>>>>>>> 53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, London  WC2N 4HSUK
@shapeblue
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: Daan Hoogland [mailto:daan.hoogland@gmail.com]
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: 29 June 2017 10:14
>>>>>>>>>> To: dev <dev@cloudstack.apache.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: JIRA - PLEASE READ
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 11:06 AM, Paul Angus
>>>>>>>>>> <paul.angus@shapeblue.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> + Release notes will be impossible to create without
a proper
>>>>>>>>>> + Jira
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> history.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And no one will know what has gone into CloudStack.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No they are not mr Grumpy. they should be base
on the code
>>>>>>>>>>> anyway,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> hence on git, not jira. I do not appose to the use
of Jira but it
>>>>>>>>>> is not required for good coding practices and as
we are not and
>>>>>>>>>> will not function as a corporation, jira is an extra
for those
>>>>>>>>>> that grave for it. not a requirement.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>

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