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From Marty Godsey <ma...@gonsource.com>
Subject RE: JIRA - PLEASE READ
Date Thu, 29 Jun 2017 19:35:56 GMT
Rafael,

I agree. I am not saying move away from Apache.. I am saying setup a "foundation" to handle
donations and even development management.. 

Regards,
Marty Godsey
Principal Engineer
nSource Solutions, LLC

-----Original Message-----
From: Rafael Weingärtner [mailto:rafaelweingartner@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 3:28 PM
To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
Subject: Re: JIRA - PLEASE READ

ACS is an Apache project, not a foundation per se; donation goes to Apache.
I know that there is some discussion/work to create a way for donating things (not just money)
to projects, but I do not know how that is going.

I do not think we need to create other foundation and move away from Apache (because that
is what this move would look like....)

But still, I wonder, even if we had a CloudStack foundation, would that make organizations
that rely on it to donate/contribute more actively? Is that the real problem?



On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 3:20 PM, Marty Godsey <marty@gonsource.com> wrote:

> Alex,
>
> I agree.. The only "good" way that we will get more adoption is to 
> treat it like an Enterprise product. But that would require investment.
> Investment with money, not just time.
>
> As an example, I use pfSense alot in my projects. If I put in a 
> pfSense router, I take 2-5% (depends on scope) of the GDM and donate 
> to the pfSense project. I do this because pfSense makes me a lot of 
> money and I want it to get better.. The only way it will get better is 
> by supporting it. And even if I was a coder, "supporting" it with code only goes so far.
>
> And as mentioned, we create a CloudStack Foundation that is a 501C 
> corp so it's a non-profit and tax deductible for people donating.
>
> So the next question is who would we speak with to get this ball 
> rolling or even a discussion started?
>
> Regards,
> Marty Godsey
> Principal Engineer
> nSource Solutions, LLC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alex Hitchins [mailto:alex@alexhitchins.com]
> Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2017 1:49 PM
> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
> Subject: Re: JIRA - PLEASE READ
>
> If it isn't being treated as a product it will be very impossible to 
> market it as enterprise ready.
>
> I know we all know this.
>
> Similar sized projects under the Apache banner must have the same 
> issue, what is the best way to gather experience of these projects? 
> See how they handle these growing pains.
>
> A cloudstack foundation entity funded by companies earning from 
> cloudstack seems a good way forward.
>
> Another tuppence, this is getting expensive.
>
>
>
> > On 29 Jun 2017, at 18:18, Ron Wheeler 
> > <rwheeler@artifact-software.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > I understand that it is a volunteer organization.
> > I do not know how many (if any) of the committers and PMC members 
> > are
> funded by their organizations (allowed or ordered to work on 
> Cloudstack during company time) which is often the way that Apache 
> projects get staffed.
> >
> > Clearly it is hard to tell someone who is being funded by a company 
> > to
> fix a problem or who is working on their own time, to do or not do 
> something.
> >
> > On the other hand, the PMC has to  build a community culture that is
> good for the project.
> > That means describing a vision, planning and enforcing a roadmap, 
> > and
> maintaining a focused project "marketing" effort.
> >
> > There is a lot of extremely talented individuals working on 
> > Cloudstack
> and it appears to have a very strong and valuable code-base.
> >
> > To me the key question is about the PMC and the core committers' 
> > ability
> to make Cloudstack a "product" that can compete for market share and 
> acceptance.
> >
> > Is Cloudstack at a point in its development where it should be 
> > treated
> like a product?
> > - sufficient functionality to compete
> > - sufficient user base to be a competitor in the market
> > - production reliability and stability
> > - business model for supporting companies to justify their continued 
> > support
> >
> > This may not require more effort but requires different policies and
> different activities.
> >
> > There has to be someone or a PMC  that can say "No".
> > - This change can not be included in this release because it will 
> > delay
> the release.
> > - This change adds an unacceptable level of complexity
> > - This bug fix will have to wait for the next release because it is 
> > too
> late to test it and fix the docs.
> > - This fix breaks the docs
> > - The release can not be made until this doc is updated.
> >
> > Does the core group want to make it a competitive product or is it
> sufficient for the interested players to continue in its current form?
> >
> > Ron
> >
> >
> >
> >> On 29/06/2017 9:42 AM, Will Stevens wrote:
> >> I personally don't know how Jira solves any of this, but assuming 
> >> it does, fine...
> >>
> >> The bigger problem which you have raised is that CloudStack has 
> >> zero funding. So we can't hire a project manager, or a release 
> >> manager or someone whose job it is to maintain documentation. I 
> >> have been trying to find a way to, at the very least, fund a full 
> >> time release manager who can focus 100% on the project. As the 
> >> release manager for 4.9, I know it is a full time job. I did my 
> >> best, but it is a ton of work and is hard to stay on top of.
> >>
> >> Everyone contributing to CloudStack is donating their time. They 
> >> can't make a living off supporting ACS, so every one is doing their 
> >> best with the little time they can take away from their day job or
> their family life.
> >>
> >> Yes, having clear guidelines and sticking to them helps, but 
> >> without a solid CI infrastructure backing the project and improved 
> >> testing and automation, we will always struggles with release 
> >> schedules and
> such.
> >>
> >> I have been involved in this project long enough to know that all 
> >> the problems you point out exist, but they are also not easily solved.
> >> Obviously we have to work with the initiatives we have and take 
> >> small steps towards improvement, but we also have to be realistic 
> >> with our expectations because we are counting on people's 
> >> generosity to move
> them forward.
> >>
> >> Simplifying moving parts and streamlining the process will lead to 
> >> more contribution because there is less barriers to entry. This one 
> >> reason why I struggle to see the value in Jira as it is used today. 
> >> I personally don't understand what value it is giving us that the 
> >> github PRs and Issues don't solve.
> >>
> >> I will remain open minded and will follow along with what people 
> >> think is best, but I think it is worth understanding what we are 
> >> trying to solve for and simplify our approach in solving it so we 
> >> can get better systems in place.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Jun 29, 2017 9:17 AM, "Ron Wheeler"
> >> <rwheeler@artifact-software.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> As a real outsider, IMHO Paul is right.
> >>>
> >>> At times it seems that Cloudstack is a coding hobby rather than a 
> >>> project or a production quality product.
> >>>
> >>> Who decides what goes into a release? How does this affect the 
> >>> release schedule?
> >>> Who is responsible for meeting the "published" roadmap (of which 
> >>> there seem to be many) of releases?
> >>>
> >>> How is a system admin that is not part of the project supposed to 
> >>> plan for upgrade windows?
> >>> How does one know when a feature, bug fix or release will be available?
> >>>
> >>> How does the PMC  manage function creep  in a release, maintain 
> >>> quality and consistency, reject changes that hurt the overall 
> >>> vision or add too much complexity?
> >>>
> >>> No one seems to care about documentation but if someone did, how 
> >>> would they stop undocumented features or features that contradict 
> >>> the documentation from being incorporated?
> >>> Who makes sure that the documentation is correct at the time of 
> >>> the release?
> >>> Release notes are not much help for someone doing a new install or 
> >>> evaluating Cloudstack.
> >>>
> >>> Without a JIRA entry, how does an end-user who encounters a 
> >>> problem know that it has been fixed already in the next release?
> >>>
> >>> Without a JIRA entry, how does the community comment on a proposed 
> >>> change before it gets coded?
> >>>
> >>> If changes are going to be accepted without a JIRA, is there a 
> >>> definition of a minor fix that does not require a JIRA?
> >>> - does not change functionality?
> >>> - only affects an "edge case" or cleans up an exception that is 
> >>> not properly handled?
> >>> - only improves code readability or future extensibility?
> >>> - does not affect documentation?
> >>>
> >>> Apache projects that are popular and enjoy wide support do have 
> >>> strong management.
> >>>
> >>> There are other examples where great Apache software is failing to 
> >>> get recognized because the PMC is not paying attention to the 
> >>> product management side of things.
> >>> I use Apache Jackrabbit which is a quality product with a strong 
> >>> technical team supporting it.
> >>> It has very little following because the documentation and 
> >>> marketing collateral is very poor.
> >>> It gets by because the audience for it is largely software 
> >>> developers who can read code and can test features to work out the
> functionality.
> >>> It would get a lot more attention if they paid attention to the 
> >>> product management side of the project.
> >>>
> >>> Cloudstack needs to avoid this situation and unfortunately this 
> >>> takes effort and some discipline.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Ron
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On 29/06/2017 8:03 AM, Will Stevens wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Why are we still using jira instead of the PRs for that 
> >>>> communication? Can we not use issues in github now instead of 
> >>>> jira if someone needs to open an issue but does not yet have code 
> >>>> to contribute. If not, jira could still be used for that.
> >>>>
> >>>> I think duplicating data between jira and the PR is kind of 
> >>>> pointless. I feel like the github PRs and the cide going in 
> >>>> should be the source of truth, not a random third party tool.
> >>>>
> >>>> For the 4.9 release notes, i built a tool to generate the release 
> >>>> notes from the PRs merged in that release. I think that is easier 
> >>>> and more accurate than depending on jira since it does not track 
> >>>> the actual code tree.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thats my 0.02$.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Jun 29, 2017 5:25 AM, "Paul Angus" <paul.angus@shapeblue.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Such a view of CloudStack is what holds CloudStack back.
> >>>> It stops users/operators from having any chance of understanding 
> >>>> what CloudStack does and how it does it.
> >>>> Code for code's sake is no use to anyone.
> >>>> Jira is about communication between developers and to everyone else.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Kind regards,
> >>>>
> >>>> Paul Angus
> >>>>
> >>>> paul.angus@shapeblue.com
> >>>> www.shapeblue.com
> >>>> 53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, London  WC2N 4HSUK @shapeblue
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Daan Hoogland [mailto:daan.hoogland@gmail.com]
> >>>> Sent: 29 June 2017 10:14
> >>>> To: dev <dev@cloudstack.apache.org>
> >>>> Subject: Re: JIRA - PLEASE READ
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 11:06 AM, Paul Angus 
> >>>> <paul.angus@shapeblue.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> + Release notes will be impossible to create without a proper 
> >>>>> + Jira
> >>>>>
> >>>> history.
> >>>>
> >>>>> And no one will know what has gone into CloudStack.
> >>>>>
> >>>> No they are not mr Grumpy. they should be base on the code 
> >>>> anyway, hence on git, not jira. I do not appose to the use of 
> >>>> Jira but it is not required for good coding practices and as we 
> >>>> are not and will not function as a corporation, jira is an extra 
> >>>> for those that grave for it. not a requirement.
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Daan
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> --
> >>> Ron Wheeler
> >>> President
> >>> Artifact Software Inc
> >>> email: rwheeler@artifact-software.com
> >>> skype: ronaldmwheeler
> >>> phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> > --
> > Ron Wheeler
> > President
> > Artifact Software Inc
> > email: rwheeler@artifact-software.com
> > skype: ronaldmwheeler
> > phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102
> >
>
>


--
Rafael Weingärtner
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