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From David Mabry <dma...@ena.com.INVALID>
Subject Re: Miami CCC '17 Roundtable/Hackathon Summary
Date Wed, 24 May 2017 12:46:02 GMT
Marty, thanks for keeping usability and adoption at the forefront of this conversation.  I
believe it is something that can be easily lost as we get deep in the technical weeds and
it is good to be reminded about what is important beyond how much code it will take to create
feature X.  I also believe that together we can come up with a solution that meets both technical
and ease of implementation requirements.  I think we can make a significant design change
to allow for a new VR, hopefully not one maintained by us, and include new feature like NFV
without forcing undue complexity on users who don’t want or need it.  In the end, for me,
it really comes down to orchestration.  How much can we do for a user “out of the box”?
 I think it is important that we have a “default” option for the VR/Networking that is
easy to implement and fits most SMB use cases.  With that said, I don’t think we can risk
alienating the larger companies that use ACS in a more complex environment.  I think for ACS
to stay relevant and compete against the likes of OpenStack we will need features like NFV
and a VR that is consistent and stable.  Oh and we also need IPv6 (That was for you Wido ;)
).

I agree with Paul that we might want to create a dedicated channel or have weekly meetings
to begin really pushing this major feature forward with the community, sooner rather than
later.  It is easy for us to lose momentum on monumental tasks such as this.

In short, one of the great features of ACS is that it provides *choice*.  What is important,
to Marty’s point, is that we don’t lose sight of usability and ease of implementation
when providing that choice for the wide variety of users that we have.

Thanks,
Dave Mabry
Education Networks of America

On 5/23/17, 10:29 PM, "Marty Godsey" <marty@gonsource.com> wrote:

    Thank you Simon for the re-cap of the hackathon. I was able to catch the last couple of
hours of it but saw the notes on the boards..
    
    I am going to give my thoughts on this coming from a slightly different angle. As many
of you know, I am not a coder. I am an Systems/Network Engineer. I know many times design
decisions are made based upon the amount of time it will require to write a particular piece
of code, update, fix bugs, etc. But the one thing we can't forget is that many ACS users may
not have the ability to add their own plugins, write code to interact with a router, etc.
I know I can't myself, going back to the I'm not a coder, but thankfully I know people that
can and can get it done if need be but the point is many people cannot. As we decide how we
are going to re-write the networking portions of ACS we have to step back and take a look
at what was one of the most talked about topics at this year's CCC. I am not talking about
the networking, IPV6 support or any other cool idea we had. The constant conversation in the
hallways and at the many "Zest" outings was ADOPTION and MARKET AWARENESS.
    
    Adoption.. How do we get the word out and get it adopted by more people? It’s a tough
question but something that also has to influence how we build ACS. Let take a moment and
compare ACS to its closest competitor Openstack. We all know that Openstack has the market
share, it has the money behind it. But what is the constant complaint we hear from people
who use? ""Yea, it works but man,, it was a bi%#h to get going""  Openstack has gotten its
adoption cause it had big names and a lot of money behind it. Openstacks complexity has also
caused it to not be adopted in many cases. Your typical IT shop in a small to medium sized
business does not have the expertise to implement something like this. And when I say SMB
I am saying organizations from 10-500 people.
    
    So back to my adoption question. As mentioned before one of the reasons many people come
to ACS is the fact that it has it all. Networking, hyper-visor management, user management,
storage management, its multi-tenant. What will drive ACS adoption will be improving what
ACS already does, not making it more like OpenStack. Now do I think that having a module service
or plugin service to provide a framework to allow for external resources to be used by ACS
is a good thing? Yes I do. But I also do not want to, and hope we don’t, move away from
what made ACS what it is today. A software that allows companies to easily spin up new public
or private clouds. Adoption-Centric Usability. 
    
    If I rambled a little here I apologize, its 11:30pm and sometimes I get ahead of myself
(especially when I write something like this at this hour) when writing about something I
am passionate about and I am passionate about getting more exposure and adoption of ACS.
    
    Thank you for listening guys.. Sorry for the ramble.
    
    Regards,
    Marty Godsey
    Principal Engineer
    nSource Solutions, LLC
    
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Rafael Weingärtner [mailto:rafaelweingartner@gmail.com] 
    Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 11:18 AM
    To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
    Subject: Re: Miami CCC '17 Roundtable/Hackathon Summary
    
    I missed the roundtable and hackathon, my bad guys :(
    
    I liked the ideas that you (all) put forward. The VR is interesting and a nice feature
to have, but it causes some pain to maintain in our development cycles. The idea to split
the current VR into NFV is great; this can make things more pluggable and take ACS to NFV
(officially). We could develop a framework in ACS (an API method?) that creates a system VM
called NFV where people (vendors, enthusiast, users and others) can then extend and add their
functions/systems there. The problem is the work required to design and develop such thing.
    
    I use Daan`s words here, this is a community effort and not a single company or individual.
What do you guys think? We could start creating a roadmap of when we want this feature (milestones
for delivering piece by piece of the complete feature), then the draft of a proposal, and
later define the implementation job, so people of the community can embrace it.
    
    On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 10:18 AM, Daan Hoogland <daan.hoogland@shapeblue.com
    > wrote:
    
    > Great thanks Simon,
    >
    > Just want to play bingo a bit; dividing the VR into VNFs (virtual 
    > network
    > functions) was mentioned. This pertains to the mention of making the 
    > VR more modular ;)
    >
    > Hopefully everybody is inspired by this because no one company or 
    > person is going to make this happen.
    >
    > Dahn
    >
    > On 23/05/17 14:16, "Simon Weller" <sweller@ena.com.INVALID> wrote:
    >
    >     Hi everyone,
    >
    >
    >     During the CCC last week in Miami, we held a roundtable/hackathon 
    > to discuss some of the major areas the community would like to focus 
    > more attention.
    >
    >
    >     The discussions were passionate and were mainly focused around 
    > networking and our current use of our home-spun Virtual Router.
    >
    >
    >     For most of the us, the VR has become a challenging beast, mainly 
    > due to how difficult it is to end-to-end test for new releases.
    >
    >     Quite often PRs are pushed that fix an issue on one feature set, 
    > but break another unintentionally. This has a great deal to do with 
    > how inter-mingled all the features are currently.
    >
    >
    >     We floated some ideas related to short term VR fixes in order to 
    > make it more modular, as well as API driven, rather than the currently 
    > SSH JSON injections.
    >
    >     A number of possible alternatives were also brought up to see what 
    > VR feature coverage could be handled by other virtual appliances 
    > currently out on the market.
    >
    >
    >     These included (but not limited to):
    >
    >
    >     VyOS (current PR out there for integration via a plugin – thanks
    > Matthew!)
    >
    >     Microtek (Commerical)
    >
    >     Openswitch/Flexswitch
    >
    >     Cloud Router
    >
    >
    >     The second major topic of the day was related to how we want to 
    > integrate networking moving forward.
    >
    >
    >     A fair number of individuals felt that we shouldn't be focusing so 
    > much on integrating network functions, but relying on other network 
    > orchestrators to hand this.
    >
    >     It was also noted that what draws a lot of people to ACS is the 
    > fact we have a VR and do provide these functions out of the box.
    >
    >
    >     We discussed how we could standardize the network sub system to 
    > use some sort of queuing bus to make it easier for others projects to 
    > integrate their solutions.
    >
    >     The current plugin implementation is fairly complex and often 
    > other projects (or commercial entities) put it into the too hard 
    > basket, until someone either does it themselves or is willing to pay for the development.
    >
    >     Most also felt it was important to maintain a default network 
    > function that works out of the box so that the complexity of a full 
    > orchestrator could be avoided if not needed.
    >
    >
    >     I'm sure I've missed some key points, so hopefully this starts a 
    > discussion with the entire community of where we focused next.
    >
    >
    >     Thanks to all those that participated on Tuesday afternoon.
    >
    >
    >     - Si
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > daan.hoogland@shapeblue.com
    > www.shapeblue.com
    > 53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, London  WC2N 4HSUK @shapeblue
    >
    >
    >
    >
    
    
    -- 
    Rafael Weingärtner
    

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