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From Matthew Smart <msm...@smartsoftwareinc.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Replacing the VR
Date Tue, 27 Sep 2016 23:13:03 GMT
Will,

I think that would be very helpful to me at least and for posterity for 
sure. I am in the process of rolling out my first production deployment 
of Cloudstack so I have been busier than expected (plus I have been 
jumping back and forth between different offices). What I intended to 
propose was that we tackle this using an intermediary step. Instead of 
jumping in and replacing the VR wholesale from the start of this 
initiative what if we look at integrating Vyos as a plugin in the same 
manner as other network offering plugins. Replacing such a core and 
vital component of the Cloudstack infrastructure as the VR should be met 
with a great deal of caution and with careful thought and planning. Such 
a replacement would require a nontrivial amount of effort by core 
contributors to be successful and it is questionable whether such an 
initiative is the area where they feel their time is best invested.

In my opinion, using the current plugin capabilities of Cloudstack as a 
first step would have the benefit of giving the devs a proof of concept 
that can be used to evaluate Vyos as a potential replacement for the 
current VR without touching the current core networking functionality at 
all. Additionally, the code needed to integrate Vyos as a plugin would, 
I assume, be directly reusable if the decision is made to go forward 
with a Vyos based VR refactor. So we are not duplicating or wasting 
effort either. Plus, it would serve as an excellent process during which 
to document the network offering plugin architecture.

On the downside to this approach, my understanding would be that the 
Vyos deploy in such an environment would have to be external to the 
cloudstack ecosystem it supports (either a bare metal install or a non 
cloudstack managed VM). Personally, for POC purposes I do not see this 
as a huge stumbling block since I expect that anyone who works on 
cloudstack can deploy a VM using Virsh or some similar hypervisor interface.

What do you think of that approach? What percentage of the functions 
current embodied by the VR are abstracted in such a way as to be 
offloadable to a plugin? Would such a plugin be feature complete enough 
to represent a proof of concept for a potential Vyos based VR?

Thanks,


Matthew Smart
President
Smart Software Solutions Inc.
108 S Pierre St.
Pierre, SD 57501

Phone: (605) 280-0383
Skype: msmart13
Email: msmart@smartsoftwareinc.com

On 09/26/2016 03:01 PM, Will Stevens wrote:
> I feel like I have squashed this discussion with my potential approach to
> handling this.  Maybe we should just pickup this discussion assuming I
> didn't post that.  :P
>
> Regarding the docs.  I have considered building a stubbed example network
> plugin and then documenting how you would take that stub and build on it.
> Would that be interesting?
>
> *Will STEVENS*
> Lead Developer
>
> *CloudOps* *| *Cloud Solutions Experts
> 420 rue Guy *|* Montreal *|* Quebec *|* H3J 1S6
> w cloudops.com *|* tw @CloudOps_
>
> On Fri, Sep 23, 2016 at 12:15 AM, Murali Reddy <muralimmreddy@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Matthew,
>>
>> Please see https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/CLOUDSTACK/
>> Extending+CloudStack+Networking
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Murali
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 22/09/16, 11:23 PM, "Matthew Smart" <msmart@smartsoftwareinc.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey Murali,
>>>
>>> I have been reading through the API and other documentation to try to
>>> get a basic understanding of the network service offering abstraction
>>> methodology in CS. I have not dove into the code yet but before I did I
>>> thought I would try a different approach.
>>>
>>> Imagine I were to come to this list and say that I have a network
>>> offering that I sell and that I wanted to write whatever I needed to in
>>> order to integrate it as an offering in CloudStack. Is there some
>>> specific documentation and guidelines you would direct me to read in
>>> order to gather the knowledge necessary to create a cloudstack
>>> compatible interface for my product?
>>>
>>> I don't know the history but I see several products that have navigated
>>> this process (Nuage, Nicira, ...etc) and am wondering how a new provider
>>> would work with you guys to navigate that process. If this is too vague,
>>> we can pretend my new offering is a hardware firewall device.
>>>
>>> My goal here is to gain an understanding of how CS interacts with third
>>> party offerings underneath the hood. I have some thoughts (I think
>>> inline with Will Steven's brain dump and diagram) but want to make sure
>>> I am not suffering some misapprehensions about the architecture and,
>>> short of tracing code, was not successful at finding the information I
>>> needed to satisfy myself that I know how it is designed.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Matthew Smart
>>> President
>>> Smart Software Solutions Inc.
>>> 108 S Pierre St.
>>> Pierre, SD 57501
>>>
>>> Phone: (605) 280-0383
>>> Skype: msmart13
>>> Email: msmart@smartsoftwareinc.com
>>>
>>> On 09/20/2016 04:54 AM, Murali Reddy wrote:
>>>> Configuration management of network appliances particularly for Cloud
>> and NFV scenarios is still evolving area. Programmability is the not the
>> strength for even the most popular network operating systems like IOS,
>> JunoS etc. So its not surprising why CloudStack integrates in a archaic way
>> with stock linux for the VR.
>>>> VR was never integral/hardcoded option in CloudStack. Its always been a
>> plugin. CloudStack network orchestration is well abstracted and designed
>> with vision to compose a network with different set of providers for
>> different services. Yes that vision is not fully realised yet, and we don’t
>> have true service function chains. That would be different discussion topic.
>>>> I tend to agree with Simon, as alternate/interim option we can take
>> hard look whats causing the problems with current VR integration.
>> Personally, I think it would be easier we take a cue from configuration
>> managers and network configuration solutions out there (for e.g promise
>> theory based Cisco ACI) move to more declarative model of expressing
>> desired state of network configuration. Infact current VR from 4.6,
>> actually holds the desired state per service basis, seems to be in that
>> direction.
>>>> It does make sense to evaluate new appliances which can provide rich
>> semantics (like programmable API, declarative configuration, versioning,
>> commit/rollback etc), but will need significant engineering effort and time
>> to stabilise. We may make same mistakes with integration of other appliance
>> as well, if we fully don’t understand the nature of the current problems
>> with CloudStack core and service provider interaction and current VR
>> integration.
>>>>
>>>> On 16/09/16, 11:59 PM, "Simon Weller" <sweller@ena.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think our other option is to take a real look at what it would take
>> to fix the VR. In my opinion, a lot of the problems are related to the
>> monolithic python code base and the fact nothing is actually separated.
>>>>> Secondly, the python scripts (and bash scripts) don't use any
>> established libraries to complete tasks and instead shell out and run
>> commands that are both hard to track and hard to parse on return.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we daemonized this, used a real api for Agent to VR communication,
>> used common already existing libraries for the system service and network
>> interactions and spent a bit of time separating out code into distinct
>> modules, everything would behave a lot better.
>>>>>
>>>>> The pain and suffering is due to years and years of patches and
>> constant shelling out to complete tasks in my opinion. If we spend time to
>> rethink how we interact with the VR in general and we abstract the systems
>> and networking stuff and use well known and stable libraries to do the
>> work, the VR would be much easier to maintain.
>>>>>
>>>>> - Si
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>> From: Marty Godsey <marty@gonsource.com>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 12:24 PM
>>>>> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
>>>>> Subject: RE: [DISCUSS] Replacing the VR
>>>>>
>>>>> So based upon this discussion would it be prudent to wait on VyOS 2.0?
>> The current VR is giving us issues but would the time invested in another
>> "solution" be wasted especially if by the time another option is chose,
>> then coded, then tested, then implemented and right as that time happened
>> to be when VyOS 2.0 is released.  Of course you said they are just in the
>> scoping range so this could still be a year or more out.
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Marty Godsey
>>>>> nSource Solutions
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: williamstevens@gmail.com [mailto:williamstevens@gmail.com] On
>> Behalf Of Will Stevens
>>>>> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 10:31 AM
>>>>> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
>>>>> Cc: daniil@baturin.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Replacing the VR
>>>>>
>>>>> I just had a quick chat with a couple of the guys over on the VyOS
>> chat.
>>>>> I have CC'ed one of them in case we have more licensing questions.
>>>>>
>>>>> So here is the status with the license "the code inherited from Vyatta
>> and our modifications from it is GPLv2 (strict, not v2+). The config
>> reading library is GPLv2 too, so anything that links to is is GPLv2.
>>>>> Some auxiliary components we made after the fork are more permissive,
>>>>> LGPLv2+ or MIT."
>>>>>
>>>>> They are currently in the process of scoping a redesign (VyOS 2.0),
>> "we are planning a clean rewrite that will solve issues of the current
>> config system".
>>>>> This will include the ability to configure via the API.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we have more questions for VyOS, they are very friendly and
>> responsive, so we should be able to get answers.
>>>>> *Will STEVENS*
>>>>> Lead Developer
>>>>>
>>>>> *CloudOps* *| *Cloud Solutions Experts
>>>>> 420 rue Guy *|* Montreal *|* Quebec *|* H3J 1S6 w cloudops.com *|* tw
>> @CloudOps_
>>>>> On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 9:37 AM, Syed Ahmed <sahmed@cloudops.com>
>> wrote:
>>>>>> I agree with Will Ilya. There are so many problems with the VR right
>> now.
>>>>>> Most of the outages we've had recently have somehow involved the VR.
>>>>>> We set custom iptables rules on the VR which can and have easily gone
>> wrong.
>>>>>> Openswan is broken, Strongswan replacement still needs to be tested.
>>>>>> VVRP with redundant router still needs work, and not to mention the
>>>>>> problems we will have when we introduce IPv6 into the whole picture.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the spirit of the discussion is to rely on a 3rd party to do
>>>>>> the networking for us (eg VyOS) and have us handle just the
>>>>>> orchestration. All the problems that I've described have already been
>>>>>> solved in VyOS. We also get the advantage of a potential wider
>>>>>> community to fix and maintain the VR and given our current development
>>>>>> velocity, it think it totally makes sense to look for a 3rd party
>> option.
>>>>>> -Syed
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 9:18 AM, Will Stevens <wstevens@cloudops.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The VR has been biting us far too often recently, which is why we
>>>>>>> have started looking into alternative implementations.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One of the things that is nice about potentially using the VyOS is
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> is based on Debian, so we should be able to run the other services
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>> we
>>>>>>> currently have like the password server and userdata on the VyOS.
>>>>>>> This means we would not have to change our architecture initially
>>>>>>> and could focus on only replacing the networking paths.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Will STEVENS*
>>>>>>> Lead Developer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *CloudOps* *| *Cloud Solutions Experts
>>>>>>> 420 rue Guy *|* Montreal *|* Quebec *|* H3J 1S6 w cloudops.com *|*
>>>>>>> tw @CloudOps_
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 6:20 AM, Nux! <nux@li.nux.ro> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The more this is discussed the more I think we should stick with
>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>> VR.
>>>>>>>> All these other options either seem unfinished or with
>>>>>>>> incompatible license.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> VyOS looks the most promising so far, it's a serious, mature
>> project.
>>>>>>>> Adopting it though means we'll have to microservice our way out of
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> extra machines for DNS/USERDATA/etc, unless we can make VyOS serve
>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>> too. Imho this adds complexity we should void.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nux!
>>>>>>>> www.nux.ro
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Will Stevens" <wstevens@cloudops.com>
>>>>>>>>> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, 15 September, 2016 17:21:28
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Replacing the VR
>>>>>>>>> Ya, we would need to add a daemon for VPN as well.  Load
>>>>>>>>> balancing is another aspect which we will need to consider if we
>> went this route.
>>>>>>>>> Something like https://traefik.io/ could potentially be a good
>>>>>>>>> fit
>>>>>> due
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> its API driven configuration, but it may be more than what we need.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We should probably try define which pieces make sense to be
>>>>>>>>> solved
>>>>>>>> together
>>>>>>>>> and which pieces would be best suited to be broken out.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think the network connectivity, routing and firewalling should
>>>>>>> probably
>>>>>>>>> all stay together since the majority of the tools we would
>>>>>> potentially
>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>>> would handle all of that together in a single implementation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The password server and userdata seems like a good option for
>>>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>> broken
>>>>>>>>> out and handled independently (and probably rewritten completely
>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>> currently have some issues).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Load balancing is another that could warrant splitting out, but
>>>>>>>>> that depends on what direction we go and how we would be managing
>> it.
>>>>>> DHCP
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> DNS are others which could go either way.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If we do split out services, I think we should consolidate as
>>>>>>>>> much as
>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>> can into each service we break out.  Ideally a network packet
>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>> hit more than one, maybe two, services.  I don't think we should
>>>>>>>>> be splitting services 'just because', I think we need a valid
>>>>>>>>> case for splitting any service out because it adds complexity.
>>>>>>>>> Our project is already complex enough, we need to avoid adding
>>>>>>>>> complexity unless it
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> really needed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Some more of my thoughts on this anyway...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *Will STEVENS*
>>>>>>>>> Lead Developer
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *CloudOps* *| *Cloud Solutions Experts
>>>>>>>>> 420 rue Guy *|* Montreal *|* Quebec *|* H3J 1S6 w cloudops.com
>>>>>>>>> *|* tw @CloudOps_
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Simon Weller <sweller@ena.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I do agree with you that this probably isn't the right place
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> password
>>>>>>>>>> service and user data.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Having said that, after taking a cursory look at the dev docs,
>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>>>>>> seem that difficult to add new daemons:
>>>>>> https://opensnaproute.github.
>>>>>>>>>> io/docs/developer.html#creating-new-component
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <https://opensnaproute.github.io/docs/developer.html#
>>>>>>>>>> creating-new-component>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They've definitely build it with a microservices architecture
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>> mind,
>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>>> each individual feature is abstracted into it's own small
>>>>>>>>>> daemon
>>>>>>>> process.
>>>>>>>>>> We could just create a daemon for the password server and the
>>>>>> userdata
>>>>>>>>>> components if we really had to.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> - Si
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> From: williamstevens@gmail.com <williamstevens@gmail.com> on
>>>>>>>>>> behalf
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> Will Stevens <wstevens@cloudops.com>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2016 9:17 AM
>>>>>>>>>> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Replacing the VR
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A big part of why I know about it is because it is written in Go.
>>>>>> :P
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it is definitely interesting for the routing and traffic
>>>>>> handling
>>>>>>>>>> aspects of the VR.  We will likely have to rethink some of the
>>>>>> pieces
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> little bit like the password server and userdata if we are to
>>>>>>>>>> adopt
>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> different VR approach.  This is where I think some of JohnB and
>>>>>>>> Chiradeep's
>>>>>>>>>> ideas make sense.  In many ways, it does not make sense for the
>>>>>> device
>>>>>>>>>> handling routing and network traffic to also be responsible for
>>>>>>>> passwords
>>>>>>>>>> and userdata.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Will STEVENS*
>>>>>>>>>> Lead Developer
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *CloudOps* *| *Cloud Solutions Experts
>>>>>>>>>> 420 rue Guy *|* Montreal *|* Quebec *|* H3J 1S6 w cloudops.com
>>>>>>>>>> *|* tw @CloudOps_
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 9:10 AM, Simon Weller <sweller@ena.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I hadn't heard of Flexswitch until you mentioned it. It looks
>>>>>> pretty
>>>>>>>>>> cool!
>>>>>>>>>>> It even supports ONIE install.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> To be honest, the ipsec feature could be added, or we could
>>>>>> offload
>>>>>>>> it to
>>>>>>>>>>> separate vm if we needed to. The fact it is so feature rich
>>>>>>>>>>> from a
>>>>>>>>>> routing
>>>>>>>>>>> perspective (and all API driven) is really nice.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Based on the roadmap, it looks like they plan to also support
>>>>>>>>>> capabilities
>>>>>>>>>>> such as BGP-MPLS based L3VPN, EVPN, VPLS in the future. This
>>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> huge
>>>>>>>>>>> for our carrier community that rely on these technologies to
>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> private
>>>>>>>>>>> gateway and inter-VPC interconnections today. We handle this
>>>>>>>>>>> stuff
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>>>>> ASRs right now with a vlan interconnect into the VR. Being
>>>>>>>>>>> able to
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>> MPLS
>>>>>>>>>>> all the way to the VR would be awesome.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It also seems to be written in GO (a language here at ENA we
>>>>>>>>>>> know
>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>> well).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> - Si
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Will Stevens <williamstevens@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2016 7:06 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: RE: [DISCUSS] Replacing the VR
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ya. I don't think it covers our whole use case, but what it
>>>>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>> cover is
>>>>>>>>>>> all api driven...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 15, 2016 1:48 AM, "Marty Godsey" <marty@gonsource.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Though I don’t see VPN in Snaproute.. Makes sense since it
>>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>> intended to do IPSec.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It seems as though VyOS is starting to look like the best
>>>>>> option.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Marty Godsey
>>>>>>>>>>>> nSource Solutions
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: williamstevens@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:williamstevens@gmail.com
>>>>>> ]
>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Will Stevens
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 11:06 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Replacing the VR
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Or we could go completely crazy and go with something like
>>>>>>>> FlexSwitch
>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>> SnapRoute
>>>>>>>>>>>> - http://www.snaproute.com/
>>>>>>>>>>>> - https://opensnaproute.github.io/docs/apis.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *Will STEVENS*
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lead Developer
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *CloudOps* *| *Cloud Solutions Experts
>>>>>>>>>>>> 420 rue Guy *|* Montreal *|* Quebec *|* H3J 1S6 w
>>>>>>>>>>>> cloudops.com
>>>>>>> *|*
>>>>>>>> tw
>>>>>>>>>>>> @CloudOps_
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 10:55 PM, Will Stevens <
>>>>>>>> wstevens@cloudops.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I tend to agree with Syed and Marty.  I am not sure what
>>>>>>> problems
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> solved by splitting up the function of the VR into a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bunch of
>>>>>>>>>> separate
>>>>>>>>>>>>> services.  As Syed points out, the complexity added is
>>>>>>>> non-trivial.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> We now have to manage all the intercontainer networking
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>> well
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> orchestrated ACS networking.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> VyOS is interesting to me because it covers the majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>>>>>>> case with a single unified control plane.  It also has
>>>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>> support
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for extending features we care about, like IPv6, VXLAN,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> VRRP, transactions, etc...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Will STEVENS*
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lead Developer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *CloudOps* *| *Cloud Solutions Experts
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 420 rue Guy *|* Montreal *|* Quebec *|* H3J 1S6 w
>>>>>> cloudops.com
>>>>>>>> *|*
>>>>>>>>>> tw
>>>>>>>>>>>>> @CloudOps_
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 9:49 PM, Syed Ahmed <
>>>>>>> sahmed@cloudops.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Agree with Marty, adding Docker containers to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> picture
>>>>>>>> although
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can make the VR more flexible but the added complexity
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worth it. Not to mention we would need to take care of
>>>>>>> networking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each container manually and given that our iptable rules
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unstable at the moment I don't see a big value add.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vyos looks like a better solution to me. I know that it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide an api but it does fit the bill quite well
>>>>>> otherwise. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specially like the fact that it has a transaction based
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> model
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can rollback changes if something goes wrong.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 9:06 PM Marty Godsey <
>>>>>>>> marty@gonsource.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Licensing aside, I think splitting the various
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> functions
>>>>>> into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> containers is not a good route either. This will force
>>>>>> users
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to maintain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use containers and adds complexity to the networking
>>>>>> aspects
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> ACS.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Complexity decreases stability. Now I understand the
>>>>>> argument
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a monolithic approach also brings its own set of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> issues but
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simplifies it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marty Godsey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nSource Solutions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Chiradeep Vittal [mailto:chiradeepv@gmail.com]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 5:37 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Replacing the VR
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I rather doubt that the Cloudrouter will fit the needs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CloudStack project
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    - it is AGPL licensed. Many enterprises will not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> touch
>>>>>>>> anything
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> AGPL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    - the github repo shows rather infrequent updates.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Quite
>>>>>>>> likely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they aren't considering the use cases of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CloudStack
>>>>>>>> community
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd back John B's comments on disaggregating the VR.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Split
>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many docker containers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    - password server
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    - userdata server
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    - DHCP / DNS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    - s2s VPN
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    - RA VPN
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    - intra-VPC routing and ACL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    - Port forwarding + NAT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    - FW
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    - LB (public)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    - LB (internal),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    - secondary storage
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    - agent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Glue them together with  docker compose files (one per
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>> case -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basic zone, isolated, VPC, SSVM, etc).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The VR image then becomes a JeOS + docker. You can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> test
>>>>>> each
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> components independently and fixing one bug in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> field
>>>>>> (say
>>>>>>>>>> DHCP)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is hitless to the other components. You don't need to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> build per-hypervisor VRs. You could even run on baremetal.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Along the way you need to figure out how to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    - make the traffic traverse the containers that are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> traversed (in most cases just 1)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    - bootstrap the router (how does it find its compose file?
>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> registry?)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    - rethink the command and control of the VR
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> functions. SSH
>>>>>>>> works,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but something more declarative, idempotent should be
>>>>>>> explored.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As you do this, it becomes clearer which of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> functions
>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> substituted by for example CloudRouter. Command and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Control
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> docker
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> containers can be moved out to another container. Etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 12:59 AM, Marty Godsey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <marty@gonsource.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This one does look nice. My biggest concern is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lack
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> VXLANs. It seems that any of the ones we mentioned
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do not
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> API so we may be stuck at the SSH method.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marty Godsey
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nSource Solutions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Abhinandan Prateek
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:abhinandan.prateek@shapeblue.com]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 2:26 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Replacing the VR
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cloudrouter looks promising. These have potential to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> save
>>>>>>>> future
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> engineering effort for example on ipv6 routing, OSPF etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And the best part is they come with test automation
>>>>>>>> framework.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13/09/16, 4:22 PM, "Jayapal Uradi"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <jayapal.uradi@accelerite.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Instead of replacing the VR in first place we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should add VyOS/cloudrouter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as provider. Once it is stable, network offerings
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (on
>>>>>>>> upgrade)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be updated to use it and we can drop the VR if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>> want
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that release
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> onwards.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> VR is stabilized over a period of time and some of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> running
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without issues.  When we replicate the ACS VR
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> features in
>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solution it takes some to find the missing pieces
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (hidden
>>>>>>>> bugs).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jayapal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 13, 2016, at 2:52 PM, Nux! <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nux@li.nux.ro> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I like the idea.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cloudrouter looks really promising, I'm not too
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keen
>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> VyOS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't have a proper http api etc).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nux!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.nux.ro
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> abhinandan.prateek@shapeblue.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.shapeblue.com<http://www.shapeblue.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, London  WC2N 4HSUK
>>>>>>>> @shapeblue
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Will Stevens" <williamstevens@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, 12 September, 2016 21:20:11
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [DISCUSS] Replacing the VR
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Disclaimer:* This is a thought experiment and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> treated as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please weigh in with the good and bad of this idea...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A couple of us have been discussing the idea of
>>>>>>>> potentially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> replacing the ACS VR with the VyOS [1] (Open
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Source
>>>>>>>> Vyatta
>>>>>>>>>>> VM).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There may be a license issue because I think it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> licensed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> under GPL, but for the sake of discussion, let's
>>>>>> assume
>>>>>>>> we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can overcome any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> license issues.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have spent some time recently with the VyOS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and I
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> admit, I was pretty impressed.  It is simple and
>>>>>>>> intuitive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and it gives you a lot more options for auditing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> configuration etc...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Items of potential interest:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Clean up our current VR script spaghetti to a
>>>>>> simpler
>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> auditable configuration workflow.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Gives a cleaner path for IPv6 support.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Handles VPN configuration via the same
>>>>>> configuration
>>>>>>>>>>>> interface.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Support for OSPF & BGP.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - VPN support through OpenVPN & StrongSwan.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Easily supports HA (redundant routers) through
>>>>>> VRRP.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - VXLAN support.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Transaction based changes to the VR with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rollback
>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>>>> error.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Items that could be difficult to solve:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Userdata password reset workflow and
>>>>>> implementation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Upgrade process.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The VyOS is not the only option if we were to
>>>>>> consider
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> approach.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another option, which I don't know as well,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would be CloudRouter (AGPL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> license) [2] which is purely API driven.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyway, would love to hear your thoughts...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [1] https://vyos.io/ [2]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://cloudrouter.org/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DISCLAIMER
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ==========
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>>>>>>>> information
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which is
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>>>>>> business.
>>>>>>>> It is
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> entity to
>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> not
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> message. If you have received this communication in
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>>>>>>>>>> please
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> infected mails.
>>


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