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From Will Stevens <wstev...@cloudops.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] Replacing the VR
Date Thu, 15 Sep 2016 14:17:04 GMT
A big part of why I know about it is because it is written in Go.  :P

Yes, it is definitely interesting for the routing and traffic handling
aspects of the VR.  We will likely have to rethink some of the pieces a
little bit like the password server and userdata if we are to adopt a
different VR approach.  This is where I think some of JohnB and Chiradeep's
ideas make sense.  In many ways, it does not make sense for the device
handling routing and network traffic to also be responsible for passwords
and userdata.

*Will STEVENS*
Lead Developer

*CloudOps* *| *Cloud Solutions Experts
420 rue Guy *|* Montreal *|* Quebec *|* H3J 1S6
w cloudops.com *|* tw @CloudOps_

On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 9:10 AM, Simon Weller <sweller@ena.com> wrote:

> I hadn't heard of Flexswitch until you mentioned it. It looks pretty cool!
> It even supports ONIE install.
>
> To be honest, the ipsec feature could be added, or we could offload it to
> separate vm if we needed to. The fact it is so feature rich from a routing
> perspective (and all API driven) is really nice.
>
>
> Based on the roadmap, it looks like they plan to also support capabilities
> such as BGP-MPLS based L3VPN, EVPN, VPLS in the future. This will be huge
> for our carrier community that rely on these technologies to do private
> gateway and inter-VPC interconnections today. We handle this stuff on our
> ASRs right now with a vlan interconnect into the VR. Being able to do MPLS
> all the way to the VR would be awesome.
>
>
> It also seems to be written in GO (a language here at ENA we know very
> well).
>
>
> - Si
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Will Stevens <williamstevens@gmail.com>
> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2016 7:06 AM
> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
> Subject: RE: [DISCUSS] Replacing the VR
>
> Ya. I don't think it covers our whole use case, but what it does cover is
> all api driven...
>
> On Sep 15, 2016 1:48 AM, "Marty Godsey" <marty@gonsource.com> wrote:
>
> > Though I don’t see VPN in Snaproute.. Makes sense since it was not
> > intended to do IPSec.
> >
> > It seems as though VyOS is starting to look like the best option.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Marty Godsey
> > nSource Solutions
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: williamstevens@gmail.com [mailto:williamstevens@gmail.com] On
> > Behalf Of Will Stevens
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 11:06 PM
> > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Replacing the VR
> >
> > Or we could go completely crazy and go with something like FlexSwitch
> from
> > SnapRoute
> > - http://www.snaproute.com/
> > - https://opensnaproute.github.io/docs/apis.html
> >
> > *Will STEVENS*
> > Lead Developer
> >
> > *CloudOps* *| *Cloud Solutions Experts
> > 420 rue Guy *|* Montreal *|* Quebec *|* H3J 1S6 w cloudops.com *|* tw
> > @CloudOps_
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 10:55 PM, Will Stevens <wstevens@cloudops.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I tend to agree with Syed and Marty.  I am not sure what problems are
> > > solved by splitting up the function of the VR into a bunch of separate
> > > services.  As Syed points out, the complexity added is non-trivial.
> > > We now have to manage all the intercontainer networking as well as the
> > > orchestrated ACS networking.
> > >
> > > VyOS is interesting to me because it covers the majority of our use
> > > case with a single unified control plane.  It also has good support
> > > for extending features we care about, like IPv6, VXLAN, VRRP,
> > > transactions, etc...
> > >
> > > *Will STEVENS*
> > > Lead Developer
> > >
> > > *CloudOps* *| *Cloud Solutions Experts
> > > 420 rue Guy *|* Montreal *|* Quebec *|* H3J 1S6 w cloudops.com *|* tw
> > > @CloudOps_
> > >
> > > On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 9:49 PM, Syed Ahmed <sahmed@cloudops.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Agree with Marty, adding Docker containers to the picture although
> > >> can make the VR more flexible but the added complexity is just not
> > >> worth it. Not to mention we would need to take care of networking
> > >> each container manually and given that our iptable rules are very
> > >> unstable at the moment I don't see a big value add.
> > >>
> > >> Vyos looks like a better solution to me. I know that it does not
> > >> provide an api but it does fit the bill quite well otherwise. I
> > >> specially like the fact that it has a transaction based model and you
> > >> can rollback changes if something goes wrong.
> > >> On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 9:06 PM Marty Godsey <marty@gonsource.com>
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Licensing aside, I think splitting the various functions into
> > >> > containers is not a good route either. This will force users to
> > >> > have to maintain
> > >> and
> > >> > use containers and adds complexity to the networking aspects of ACS.
> > >> > Complexity decreases stability. Now I understand the argument that
> > >> > a monolithic approach also brings its own set of issues but it also
> > >> > simplifies it.
> > >> >
> > >> > Regards,
> > >> > Marty Godsey
> > >> > nSource Solutions
> > >> >
> > >> > -----Original Message-----
> > >> > From: Chiradeep Vittal [mailto:chiradeepv@gmail.com]
> > >> > Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 5:37 PM
> > >> > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
> > >> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Replacing the VR
> > >> >
> > >> > I rather doubt that the Cloudrouter will fit the needs of the
> > >> > CloudStack project
> > >> >  - it is AGPL licensed. Many enterprises will not touch anything
> > >> > that
> > >> has
> > >> > AGPL
> > >> >  - the github repo shows rather infrequent updates. Quite likely
> > >> > they aren't considering the use cases of the CloudStack community
> > >> >
> > >> > I'd back John B's comments on disaggregating the VR. Split it into
> > >> > many docker containers
> > >> >  - password server
> > >> >  - userdata server
> > >> >  - DHCP / DNS
> > >> >  - s2s VPN
> > >> >  - RA VPN
> > >> >  - intra-VPC routing and ACL
> > >> >  - Port forwarding + NAT
> > >> >  - FW
> > >> >  - LB (public)
> > >> >  - LB (internal),
> > >> >  - secondary storage
> > >> >  - agent
> > >> > Glue them together with  docker compose files (one per use case -
> > >> > basic zone, isolated, VPC, SSVM, etc).
> > >> >
> > >> > The VR image then becomes a JeOS + docker. You can test each of the
> > >> > components independently and fixing one bug in the field (say DHCP)
> > >> > is hitless to the other components. You don't need to build
> > >> > per-hypervisor VRs. You could even run on baremetal.
> > >> >
> > >> > Along the way you need to figure out how to
> > >> >  - make the traffic traverse the containers that are needed to be
> > >> > traversed (in most cases just 1)
> > >> >  - bootstrap the router (how does it find its compose file? where
> > >> > is the
> > >> > registry?)
> > >> >  - rethink the command and control of the VR functions. SSH works,
> > >> > but something more declarative, idempotent should be explored.
> > >> >
> > >> > As you do this, it becomes clearer which of the functions can be
> > >> > substituted by for example CloudRouter. Command and Control of the
> > >> docker
> > >> > containers can be moved out to another container. Etc.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 12:59 AM, Marty Godsey
> > >> > <marty@gonsource.com>
> > >> > wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > This one does look nice. My biggest concern is the lack of
> > >> > > VXLANs. It seems that any of the ones we mentioned do not have
an
> > >> > > API so we may be stuck at the SSH method.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Regards,
> > >> > > Marty Godsey
> > >> > > nSource Solutions
> > >> > >
> > >> > > -----Original Message-----
> > >> > > From: Abhinandan Prateek
> > >> > > [mailto:abhinandan.prateek@shapeblue.com]
> > >> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 2:26 AM
> > >> > > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
> > >> > > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Replacing the VR
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Cloudrouter looks promising. These have potential to save future
> > >> > > engineering effort for example on ipv6 routing, OSPF etc.
> > >> > > And the best part is they come with test automation framework.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > On 13/09/16, 4:22 PM, "Jayapal Uradi"
> > >> > > <jayapal.uradi@accelerite.com>
> > >> > > wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > >Hi,
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >Instead of replacing the VR in first place we should add
> > >> > > >VyOS/cloudrouter
> > >> > > as provider. Once it is stable, network offerings (on upgrade)
> > >> > > can be updated to use it and we can drop the VR if we want at
> > >> > > that release
> > >> > onwards.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >VR is stabilized over a period of time and some of them are
> > >> > > >running
> > >> > > without issues.  When we replicate the ACS VR features in new
> > >> > > solution it takes some to find the missing pieces (hidden bugs).
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >Thanks,
> > >> > > >Jayapal
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >> On Sep 13, 2016, at 2:52 PM, Nux! <
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >> nux@li.nux.ro> wrote:
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >> Hi,
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >> I like the idea.
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >> Cloudrouter looks really promising, I'm not too keen
on VyOS
> > >> > > >> (it
> > >> > > doesn't have a proper http api etc).
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >> --
> > >> > > >> Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >> Nux!
> > >> > > >> www.nux.ro
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > abhinandan.prateek@shapeblue.com
> > >> > > www.shapeblue.com<http://www.shapeblue.com>
> > >> > > 53 Chandos Place, Covent Garden, London  WC2N 4HSUK @shapeblue
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >> > > >>> From: "Will Stevens" <williamstevens@gmail.com>
> > >> > > >>> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
> > >> > > >>> Sent: Monday, 12 September, 2016 21:20:11
> > >> > > >>> Subject: [DISCUSS] Replacing the VR
> > >> > > >>
> > >> > > >>> *Disclaimer:* This is a thought experiment and should
be
> > >> > > >>> treated as
> > >> > > such.
> > >> > > >>> Please weigh in with the good and bad of this idea...
> > >> > > >>>
> > >> > > >>> A couple of us have been discussing the idea of
potentially
> > >> > > >>> replacing the ACS VR with the VyOS [1] (Open Source
Vyatta
> VM).
> > >> > > >>> There may be a license issue because I think it
is licensed
> > >> > > >>> under GPL, but for the sake of discussion, let's
assume we
> > >> > > >>> can overcome any
> > >> > > license issues.
> > >> > > >>>
> > >> > > >>> I have spent some time recently with the VyOS and
I have to
> > >> > > >>> admit, I was pretty impressed.  It is simple and
intuitive
> > >> > > >>> and it gives you a lot more options for auditing
the
> > configuration etc...
> > >> > > >>>
> > >> > > >>> Items of potential interest:
> > >> > > >>> - Clean up our current VR script spaghetti to a
simpler more
> > >> > > >>> auditable configuration workflow.
> > >> > > >>> - Gives a cleaner path for IPv6 support.
> > >> > > >>> - Handles VPN configuration via the same configuration
> > interface.
> > >> > > >>> - Support for OSPF & BGP.
> > >> > > >>> - VPN support through OpenVPN & StrongSwan.
> > >> > > >>> - Easily supports HA (redundant routers) through
VRRP.
> > >> > > >>> - VXLAN support.
> > >> > > >>> - Transaction based changes to the VR with rollback
on error.
> > >> > > >>>
> > >> > > >>> Items that could be difficult to solve:
> > >> > > >>> - Userdata password reset workflow and implementation.
> > >> > > >>> - Upgrade process.
> > >> > > >>>
> > >> > > >>> The VyOS is not the only option if we were to consider
this
> > >> approach.
> > >> > > >>> Another option, which I don't know as well, would
be
> > >> > > >>> CloudRouter (AGPL
> > >> > > >>> license) [2] which is purely API driven.
> > >> > > >>>
> > >> > > >>> Anyway, would love to hear your thoughts...
> > >> > > >>>
> > >> > > >>> Will
> > >> > > >>>
> > >> > > >>> [1] https://vyos.io/
> > >> > > >>> [2] https://cloudrouter.org/
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
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