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From Paul Angus <paul.an...@shapeblue.com>
Subject RE: Network QoS (not bandwidth limiting)
Date Mon, 23 Feb 2015 22:20:25 GMT
I'm largely in agreement with Adrian on this.

I think we all understand that the members of the community are largely driven by some form
of self-interest, individuals are paid to develop feature x because their company want it
enough or they do it because they want to and their company has given them freedom to do a
certain amount of stuff for the sheer hell of it.

The projects' users' challenge is to find a way to incentivise some developers to develop
the features which the users want to see.  If the user base can demonstrate that enough of
them want a feature then the case is already made that it is a real need.

So I am all for the 'users' banding together, forming special interest groups and writing
design specs, even having their own mini votes on things.  We can't hope to get anything written
 without solid requirements in the first place. That has to be the first step.

And if anyone has any ideas about a mechanism to incentivise the development of the features
I'm all ears.


[Power to the people]


Regards

Paul Angus
Cloud Architect
S: +44 20 3603 0540 | M: +447711418784 | T: CloudyAngus
paul.angus@shapeblue.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Marcus [mailto:shadowsor@gmail.com]
Sent: 22 February 2015 07:08
To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
Cc: users@cloudstack.apache.org
Subject: Re: Network QoS (not bandwidth limiting)

The points raised are certainly valid from an enterprise networking standpoint, and don't
fall on deaf ears, but we should keep things in perspective. To provide the aforementioned
features would be relatively uncharted territory in the cloud orchestration world (at least
not considering vendor provided networking solutions that only handle the network part of
the equation), so while it would be good to aspire to providing those things, it should be
no surprise that the platform works that way and lacks such features.

For further perspective, keep in mind that cloud orchestration in general has been a pitch
to software developers and management for "easy infrastructure". Cloud consumers are end users,
web developers, application developers, so again it should be no surprise that the product
provides features that cater to that, rather than providing the bells and whistles that a
network admin would want to see in their infrastructure. CloudStack was never built to be
pitched to network teams as a cure for managing their infra deployments, the only cloud product
providers doing that are network vendors who have cloud networking products. This is of course
why a VPC needs IPs defined, as applications care more about how to serve up a web page than
network engineering and managing distinct layer 2 and 3, so the whole network stack is sandwiched
into a simple orchestration mechanism that gets the application what it needs.

In designing and deploying cloud, the most common complaint I see from people who are infrastructure
maintainers is "why can't I just build the infrastructure the way I want and then have it
orchestrated?".
Unfortunately, we can't just automate and integrate with anyone's pet design. CloudStack supports
many novel and custom network designs simply by allowing the option of letting you manage
the network hardware and being hands-off (shared/public networks), while also being pluggable
to allow vendors to take over whatever features and they wish. I've seen some pretty advanced
overlay networking provided through third party plugins to CloudStack that take over all network
functionality and provide more.

What's really being asked for here is for CloudStack to provide and maintain a fully-fledged
and featured router distribution in its provided virtual router. It's an admirable project
to have if we can get support for it. My guess is there's a bit of a disconnect in interest
though, because many (but not all) enterprises who want CloudStack for infrastructure automation
are skeptical about a VM as software router and prefer to bring in aforementioned enterprise
vendors who have their own plugins. People who provide cloud hosting and other services tend
to use the routers, but their interest in enterprise level routing and redundancy varies greatly,
and their customers are designing their apps to be resilient to infrastructure loss (e.g.
most AWS customers). That's of course not entirely the whole truth, as is evidenced by the
work we are seeing on redundant routers, but I do believe that's why we haven't seen these
things from the beginning. They just haven't been all that important to the target customers,
even though infrastructure engineers are used to providing them.

So now comes my philosophy. In the end, I think the great thing about open source communities
is that if there's the right level of interest, it will happen.  I'm the kind of person who
feels a pang of stress at the idea that something I work on can't be all things to all people,
but after building a hosting business over the last few years I've begun to realize that it's
really only practical to try to be good for a subset of the market and focus on that. You'll
never please everyone, there are limits to what you can accomplish, and sometimes it's OK
to just concede that your product is not going to work for everyone. If you don't, you'll
spread yourself too thin and fail everyone. In order to make something great you have to have
a limit on your scope. That's not to say you don't listen to your customers, but you sometimes
have to make hard choices on who to listen to and who to upset.

None of this should be taken as a discouragement to the topics at hand, but again as someone
to takes it personally when I don't deliver I wanted to provide some follow up to address
the "rant" and try to provide perspective on why the things are the way they are.

On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Somesh Naidu <Somesh.Naidu@citrix.com> wrote:
> Adrian,
>
> Rant or not, I believe you have raised a valid point and reflect certain group of peoples
requirement.
>
> Based on your requirement, I believe you are looking for something like Vyatta.
>
> Regards,
> Somesh
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Adrian Lewis [mailto:adrian@alsiconsulting.co.uk]
> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 8:50 PM
> To: users@cloudstack.apache.org
> Subject: RE: Network QoS (not bandwidth limiting)
>
> Tempted to suggest some sort of special interest group where
> networking people can have some input into the dev process despite not
> necessarily being able to produce any code themselves. As an example,
> Schuberg Philis have recently done some great work on the redundant
> VPC VR but to a network person, this sort of functionality is almost
> taken for granted (please don't take this as a lack of appreciation).
> Similarly, the lack of end-to-end QoS for applications running on ACS
> seems to me at least to be a fairly significant oversight. ACS is
> known as having very flexible networking compared with some of the
> alternatives but there does still appear to be an enterprise focus on most elements that
a 'typical'
> developer (dare I say it, web developer) faces but more of a home
> network approach to the networking side (aside from some pretty
> impressive niche features).
>
> We shouldn't need to rely on proprietary 3rd party products to provide
> a similar level of versatility for networking in ACS in my opinion. It
> seems bizarre to me that we have load balancing, distributed routing &
> ACLs with the OVS controller, PVLANs for isolation,  etc, but yet
> still don't have what I would consider basic functions such as better
> control over NAT, firewalling, routing (no dynamic routing protocols
> at all), IPsec, having to specify IP related attributes to what should
> simply be L2 constructs (why does a VPC need to be given a CIDR?!?)
> etc. AWS had a similar issue that lead to the VPC being introduced -
> enterprises consistently rejected the weird and illogical way that
> they did networking back in the day that was overly focussed on web/cloudy workloads.
>
> This sounds like a rant and to an extent it is but I'd like to turn it
> into a positive. I feel fairly helpless when the typical response to
> feedback like this is that I should just contribute code. There are a
> number of people that embrace the concept that the community should be
> a collective of not just developers, but at the same time it's pretty
> difficult to feel part of a community that's run almost uniquely by
> developers; it's even a bit intimidating at times. I've seen too many
> commercial companies that abandon innovation in favour of satisfying
> the 'large account' RFC/RFPs and in my opinion the same may apply to a
> project driven largely by the needs of those that can contribute code.
>
> To flip the concept on its head, it would be like a network guy
> creating an amazing cloud orchestration platform but where you can
> only run centos
> 6 with a LAMP stack - yes this might work for a lot of people (and it
> would likely only be adopted by those people) but for those that just
> want to do something a bit different, it would be a fairly frustrating
> experience.
>
> Am I simply being a spoilt kid here or is there room for input that
> might be constructive? Is there anyone here on the list with a
> networking focus that can corroborate these concerns?
>
> Adrian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Somesh Naidu [mailto:Somesh.Naidu@citrix.com]
> Sent: 20 February 2015 18:31
> To: users@cloudstack.apache.org
> Subject: RE: Network QoS (not bandwidth limiting)
>
> I don't think we can. QoS in CS is mostly throttling traffic on the
> virtual interface.
>
> Regards,
> Somesh
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Len.Bellemore@alternativenetworks.com
> [mailto:Len.Bellemore@alternativenetworks.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 5:18 AM
> To: users@cloudstack.apache.org
> Subject: Network QoS (not bandwidth limiting)
>
> Hi All,
>
> Does anyone know if it's possible to do network QoS in Cloudstack?  I
> don't mean bandwidth limiting, but rather, prioritising different
> traffic types for voice, etc.
>
> Thanks
> Len
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