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From Paul Angus <paul.an...@shapeblue.com>
Subject RE: Network QoS (not bandwidth limiting)
Date Tue, 24 Feb 2015 09:52:45 GMT
Hi Adrian,

Obviously I have to pick you up on not including the <rant> tag, so I can't tell where
it started :)
Otherwise I'm pretty much in complete agreement.

The community is probably too developer focused and for the project to stay relevant we probably
need to redress that balance. What we really need are user-community driven features and far
more user-input into the feature development process, and I agree that means making it more
friendly to non-developers.  I'm not anti-developer, some of my best friends are developers
:) but due to the job description, they don't tend to spend a lot of time consuming the product
that they build especially not in the multitude of ways and users could be using them (SBP
excepted).

I won't go into a lengthy discussion about all your individual points, I'll just say that
I largely agree, and point people to the site to site VPN feature as an example. It's implemented
in openswan which I have no problem with, except the documentation on openswan.org around
how to connect it to various vendor's endpoints is sparse to non-existent.  Also the only
place to see errors relating to the VPN are in a log file on the VPC virtual router which
the user has no access to. VPNs are tricky enough to set up at the best of times, doing it
without any feedback is a nightmare.  This would never pass any decent user acceptance testing.

To throw an idea in the ring, *maybe* for a feature to be accepted, its design document and
functional specification have to have been 'signed off' by x independent 'users'.  Controversial
I know, but I think it makes a good starting point for us to think about how the people on
the user mailing list can get involved. A Section in the CloudStack wiki maintained by users
showing the features that they may put input into might help.  Or a 'features & improvements
' mailing list might serve as neutral territory for users and developers to have conversations...

.... Just some thoughts..


Regards,

Paul Angus
Cloud Architect
D: +44 20 3468 5163 |S: +44 20 3603 0540 | M: +44 7711 418 784 | T: @CloudyAngus
paul.angus@shapeblue.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Adrian Lewis [mailto:adrian@alsiconsulting.co.uk]
Sent: 24 February 2015 02:57
To: users@cloudstack.apache.org; dev@cloudstack.apache.org
Subject: RE: Network QoS (not bandwidth limiting)

Hi Marcus, Somesh, Paul

Thanks for responding and yes, I think in some aspects I may be asking too much but this isn't
just me asking for extra/additional/new features per se.
I think it's easier if I split up the issues that I perceive to be problems into four distinct
areas. There's overlap between them but it might help me explain better:

1. New features
2. Features that are already there but that can’t be used 3. Features that are turned on
that can't be turned off 4. Features that work but which could do with a more granular implementation

In more detail:

1. New features:
Yes this is a contentious one (QoS, Dynamic Routing, OpenVPN etc). I think that this is the
greedy ask and it's not feasible or even fair to ask for stuff for free. Believe it or not,
I'm not asking "for CloudStack to provide and maintain a fully fledged and featured router
distribution in its provided virtual router". If customer demand pays for something new and
cool to be developed and it's contributed back then great but this sort of thing can't be
an expectation by default. For those that do want more, the solution here though might be,
IMHO the ability to either:

a) Provide a relatively simple way for users (not devs) to customise the VR themselves, adding/swapping/deleting
packages, orchestration agents (puppet ansible salt etc) and giving people access to the VR
for configuration without the risk of deletion on recreation; making the VR a 'first-class
citizen' vm instead of a disposable commodity.

b) Allow the use of third party router/firewall VMs to be used instead of the default VR.
Obviously, this would be at the sacrifice of functions that a 3rd party might not provide
such as userdata and most other functions would have to be managed manually on the VR without
the orchestration functionality that ACS provides with the official system VMs. There appears
to already be a way to do this but I can’t find much information on this so I might be very
wrong. The router.template.<hypervisor> setting lets me create my own VR template but
things went very wrong when I tried using it so I gave up. This setting also applies to every
single vr in the entire zone which is not going to fit for many, especially if the replacement
is a commercially licensed product. This is what I gather Somesh alluded to in his reply.
It would be great if we could offer a choice of built-in VR, a Vyatta VR or a Cisco VR depending
on the customer requirements without having to code a separate network provider for each,
get it committed and wait for a new release.

2. Features that are already there but that can’t be used These are things like being able
to configure the IPsec VPNs, iptables firewall/NAT rules, or routing tables on VRs in more
detail. At the moment, if it can’t be orchestrated by ACS, it can’t be done at all. If
I were to suggest that configuration of all VMs including user VMs had to be done by ACS most
would likely state that as being utterly ridiculous but yet we accept that limitation with
the VR VMs. Also, some of the hardcoded rules that validate configuration changes to VRs are
simply broken. For example, yes it is possible and perfectly normal to have two routes with
destinations that overlap if the subnet mask is different - it's called route summarisation.
Another example is that I might want to set my default route on a VPC VR to the private gateway
but because it doesn’t fit with the specific use-case that whoever designed that aspect
had at the time, it's not allowed. One last one which would need more but not much, is being
able to use DHCP relay functionality already built into DNSMasq - That one would solve a few
problems for hybrid or private cloud deployments where IPAM is managed with Active Directory
integrated tools.

3. Features that are turned on that can't be turned off This one is a personal annoyance and
while there's likely other examples, one that gets me is the fact that you can’t turn off
source NAT on a VPC VR.
Perhaps a sensible *default* might be to use source NAT but there are perfectly valid reasons
why some people might want to turn it off. Some people might want public IPs inside one or
more tiers, some people might be doing source NAT further up in the network and the 'public'
network is merely a transit network (default route on the VR). These sort of things are where
I actually want ACS to do less and not to try to second guess what I want - just let me have
a little more control over the basics without making things 'easier' for me (and enforcing
it).

4. Features that work but which could do with a more granular implementation A good example
of this would be the fact that you have to specify a CIDR for a VPC that cannot be changed
or added to once configured. Nobody in their right mind would ever place a constraint like
this on an on-premise network.
Yes if you're doing something very simple or you create a VPC for each application that you
build it's less of an issue but if you're using ACS as part of your more traditional corporate
infrastructure, for DR purposes, for hybrid cloud purposes etc, it's a very notable WTF to
any network engineer when they first see it. This example may be in place to make things simpler
elsewhere (such as routes, firewall rules & VPN connections) but in my mind is simply
brushing additional complexity in the future under the metaphorical carpet.

Trying to flip the dev/networking approach here, it would be like creating a really cool automated
way of installing and configuring MySQL on every VM but stopping anyone from uninstalling
it or using anything other than InnoDB. The network guy might say "Why do you need anything
other than MySQL/InnoDB and if you don’t want it, don’t use it". The dev/ops/devops guy
would say they'd rather have a plain VM with no DB at all and install themselves if needed
than have the really cool automation. Let users decide whether they want ACS to do cool stuff
for them or whether they just want the basics and they'll do the rest (if more is even needed).

In summary, while my initial rant may have come across as wanting more for nothing, priority
1 for me is actually the option to have *less* but the ability for me to tweak stuff myself
instead of having ACS enforce its view on how things should be done. Leave the templated network
provisioning procedures alone for where they fit, perhaps leave them as defaults, but don’t
enforce them or assume that everyone wants them. I don't think it is safe to assume that "Cloud
consumers are end users, web developers, application developers". IMHO, making that assumption,
is the cause of the same effect.
If we reject that assumption, we may find ACS to be a bit more welcoming to others. I don’t
believe that more is necessarily needed, in fact less.

Adrian
</rant>

-----Original Message-----
From: Marcus [mailto:shadowsor@gmail.com]
Sent: 22 February 2015 07:08
To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
Cc: users@cloudstack.apache.org
Subject: Re: Network QoS (not bandwidth limiting)

The points raised are certainly valid from an enterprise networking standpoint, and don't
fall on deaf ears, but we should keep things in perspective. To provide the aforementioned
features would be relatively uncharted territory in the cloud orchestration world (at least
not considering vendor provided networking solutions that only handle the network part of
the equation), so while it would be good to aspire to providing those things, it should be
no surprise that the platform works that way and lacks such features.

For further perspective, keep in mind that cloud orchestration in general has been a pitch
to software developers and management for "easy infrastructure". Cloud consumers are end users,
web developers, application developers, so again it should be no surprise that the product
provides features that cater to that, rather than providing the bells and whistles that a
network admin would want to see in their infrastructure. CloudStack was never built to be
pitched to network teams as a cure for managing their infra deployments, the only cloud product
providers doing that are network vendors who have cloud networking products. This is of course
why a VPC needs IPs defined, as applications care more about how to serve up a web page than
network engineering and managing distinct layer 2 and 3, so the whole network stack is sandwiched
into a simple orchestration mechanism that gets the application what it needs.

In designing and deploying cloud, the most common complaint I see from people who are infrastructure
maintainers is "why can't I just build the infrastructure the way I want and then have it
orchestrated?".
Unfortunately, we can't just automate and integrate with anyone's pet design. CloudStack supports
many novel and custom network designs simply by allowing the option of letting you manage
the network hardware and being hands-off (shared/public networks), while also being pluggable
to allow vendors to take over whatever features and they wish. I've seen some pretty advanced
overlay networking provided through third party plugins to CloudStack that take over all network
functionality and provide more.

What's really being asked for here is for CloudStack to provide and maintain a fully fledged
and featured router distribution in its provided virtual router. It's an admirable project
to have if we can get support for it. My guess is there's a bit of a disconnect in interest
though, because many (but not all) enterprises who want CloudStack for infrastructure automation
are skeptical about a VM as software router and prefer to bring in aforementioned enterprise
vendors who have their own plugins. People who provide cloud hosting and other services tend
to use the routers, but their interest in enterprise level routing and redundancy varies greatly,
and their customers are designing their apps to be resilient to infrastructure loss (e.g.
most AWS customers). That's of course not entirely the whole truth, as is evidenced by the
work we are seeing on redundant routers, but I do believe that's why we haven't seen these
things from the beginning. They just haven't been all that important to the target customers,
even though infrastructure engineers are used to providing them.

So now comes my philosophy. In the end, I think the great thing about open source communities
is that if there's the right level of interest, it will happen.  I'm the kind of person who
feels a pang of stress at the idea that something I work on can't be all things to all people,
but after building a hosting business over the last few years I've begun to realize that it's
really only practical to try to be good for a subset of the market and focus on that. You'll
never please everyone, there are limits to what you can accomplish, and sometimes it's OK
to just concede that your product is not going to work for everyone. If you don't, you'll
spread yourself too thin and fail everyone. In order to make something great you have to have
a limit on your scope. That's not to say you don't listen to your customers, but you sometimes
have to make hard choices on who to listen to and who to upset.

None of this should be taken as a discouragement to the topics at hand, but again as someone
to takes it personally when I don't deliver I wanted to provide some follow up to address
the "rant" and try to provide perspective on why the things are the way they are.

On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Somesh Naidu <Somesh.Naidu@citrix.com>
wrote:
> Adrian,
>
> Rant or not, I believe you have raised a valid point and reflect
> certain group of peoples requirement.
>
> Based on your requirement, I believe you are looking for something
> like Vyatta.
>
> Regards,
> Somesh
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Adrian Lewis [mailto:adrian@alsiconsulting.co.uk]
> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 8:50 PM
> To: users@cloudstack.apache.org
> Subject: RE: Network QoS (not bandwidth limiting)
>
> Tempted to suggest some sort of special interest group where
> networking people can have some input into the dev process despite not
> necessarily being able to produce any code themselves. As an example,
> Schuberg Philis have recently done some great work on the redundant
> VPC VR but to a network person, this sort of functionality is almost
> taken for granted (please don't take this as a lack of appreciation).
> Similarly, the lack of end-to-end QoS for applications running on ACS
> seems to me at least to be a fairly significant oversight. ACS is
> known as having very flexible networking compared with some of the
> alternatives but there does still appear to be an enterprise focus on
> most elements that a 'typical'
> developer (dare I say it, web developer) faces but more of a home
> network approach to the networking side (aside from some pretty
> impressive niche features).
>
> We shouldn't need to rely on proprietary 3rd party products to provide
> a similar level of versatility for networking in ACS in my opinion. It
> seems bizarre to me that we have load balancing, distributed routing &
> ACLs with the OVS controller, PVLANs for isolation,  etc, but yet
> still don't have what I would consider basic functions such as better
> control over NAT, firewalling, routing (no dynamic routing protocols
> at all), IPsec, having to specify IP related attributes to what should
> simply be L2 constructs (why does a VPC need to be given a CIDR?!?)
> etc. AWS had a similar issue that lead to the VPC being introduced -
> enterprises consistently rejected the weird and illogical way that
> they did networking back in the day that was overly focussed on
> web/cloudy workloads.
>
> This sounds like a rant and to an extent it is but I'd like to turn it
> into a positive. I feel fairly helpless when the typical response to
> feedback like this is that I should just contribute code. There are a
> number of people that embrace the concept that the community should be
> a collective of not just developers, but at the same time it's pretty
> difficult to feel part of a community that's run almost uniquely by
> developers; it's even a bit intimidating at times. I've seen too many
> commercial companies that abandon innovation in favour of satisfying
> the 'large account' RFC/RFPs and in my opinion the same may apply to a
> project driven largely by the needs of those that can contribute code.
>
> To flip the concept on its head, it would be like a network guy
> creating an amazing cloud orchestration platform but where you can
> only run centos
> 6 with a LAMP stack - yes this might work for a lot of people (and it
> would likely only be adopted by those people) but for those that just
> want to do something a bit different, it would be a fairly frustrating
> experience.
>
> Am I simply being a spoilt kid here or is there room for input that
> might be constructive? Is there anyone here on the list with a
> networking focus that can corroborate these concerns?
>
> Adrian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Somesh Naidu [mailto:Somesh.Naidu@citrix.com]
> Sent: 20 February 2015 18:31
> To: users@cloudstack.apache.org
> Subject: RE: Network QoS (not bandwidth limiting)
>
> I don't think we can. QoS in CS is mostly throttling traffic on the
> virtual interface.
>
> Regards,
> Somesh
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Len.Bellemore@alternativenetworks.com
> [mailto:Len.Bellemore@alternativenetworks.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 5:18 AM
> To: users@cloudstack.apache.org
> Subject: Network QoS (not bandwidth limiting)
>
> Hi All,
>
> Does anyone know if it's possible to do network QoS in Cloudstack?  I
> don't mean bandwidth limiting, but rather, prioritising different
> traffic types for voice, etc.
>
> Thanks
> Len
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