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From Adrian Lewis <adr...@alsiconsulting.co.uk>
Subject RE: Network QoS (not bandwidth limiting)
Date Tue, 24 Feb 2015 03:15:09 GMT
Hi PL,

Thanks for your feedback - appreciated that you've taken the time to read
through the emails. I may be wrong but I get the impression that Jira is
great for specific features that may result from discussion here, at meetups
or CCC but I'm not convinced that someone like me posting stuff there is
likely to have a positive reception. Firstly, as Paul also mentions, I doubt
that many users (or potential users) would use it even if they did know of
its existence. I don’t think it is likely to garner responses from an
accurate enough sample of voters. Secondly, even within the dev community,
how many of you regularly look at feature requests (not sure I would to be
brutally honest)?

If anyone would be interested in a discussion at the next EU usergroup (i.e.
London) I'd be more than happy to contribute what knowledge I have (largely
networking & network security) and I'm happy to be told about stuff I
clearly know nothing about - maybe some of my assumptions are completely
wrong. Call it a SIG, panel discussion etc. We might even be able to
formulate a half-decent spec before we get too drunk.

Adrian

-----Original Message-----
From: Pierre-Luc Dion [mailto:pdion@cloudops.com]
Sent: 24 February 2015 02:07
To: users@cloudstack.apache.org
Cc: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
Subject: Re: Network QoS (not bandwidth limiting)

For voting on new features why not use the voting capability of Jira for new
feature? at least it would give an idea if their is interest about new
features and improvement.  test:
https://issues.apache.org/jira/issues/?filter=12330479  (logon required)

Regarding spec of new features they still need a feature spec into the wiki
that is also use to define a release.


PL


On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 5:20 PM, Paul Angus <paul.angus@shapeblue.com>
wrote:

> I'm largely in agreement with Adrian on this.
>
> I think we all understand that the members of the community are
> largely driven by some form of self-interest, individuals are paid to
> develop feature x because their company want it enough or they do it
> because they want to and their company has given them freedom to do a
> certain amount of stuff for the sheer hell of it.
>
> The projects' users' challenge is to find a way to incentivise some
> developers to develop the features which the users want to see.  If
> the user base can demonstrate that enough of them want a feature then
> the case is already made that it is a real need.
>
> So I am all for the 'users' banding together, forming special interest
> groups and writing design specs, even having their own mini votes on
> things.  We can't hope to get anything written  without solid
> requirements in the first place. That has to be the first step.
>
> And if anyone has any ideas about a mechanism to incentivise the
> development of the features I'm all ears.
>
>
> [Power to the people]
>
>
> Regards
>
> Paul Angus
> Cloud Architect
> S: +44 20 3603 0540 | M: +447711418784 | T: CloudyAngus
> paul.angus@shapeblue.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marcus [mailto:shadowsor@gmail.com]
> Sent: 22 February 2015 07:08
> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
> Cc: users@cloudstack.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Network QoS (not bandwidth limiting)
>
> The points raised are certainly valid from an enterprise networking
> standpoint, and don't fall on deaf ears, but we should keep things in
> perspective. To provide the aforementioned features would be
> relatively uncharted territory in the cloud orchestration world (at
> least not considering vendor provided networking solutions that only
> handle the network part of the equation), so while it would be good to
> aspire to providing those things, it should be no surprise that the
> platform works that way and lacks such features.
>
> For further perspective, keep in mind that cloud orchestration in
> general has been a pitch to software developers and management for
> "easy infrastructure". Cloud consumers are end users, web developers,
> application developers, so again it should be no surprise that the
> product provides features that cater to that, rather than providing
> the bells and whistles that a network admin would want to see in their
> infrastructure. CloudStack was never built to be pitched to network
> teams as a cure for managing their infra deployments, the only cloud
> product providers doing that are network vendors who have cloud
> networking products. This is of course why a VPC needs IPs defined, as
> applications care more about how to serve up a web page than network
> engineering and managing distinct layer 2 and 3, so the whole network
> stack is sandwiched into a simple orchestration mechanism that gets the
> application what it needs.
>
> In designing and deploying cloud, the most common complaint I see from
> people who are infrastructure maintainers is "why can't I just build
> the infrastructure the way I want and then have it orchestrated?".
> Unfortunately, we can't just automate and integrate with anyone's pet
> design. CloudStack supports many novel and custom network designs
> simply by allowing the option of letting you manage the network
> hardware and being hands-off (shared/public networks), while also
> being pluggable to allow vendors to take over whatever features and
> they wish. I've seen some pretty advanced overlay networking provided
> through third party plugins to CloudStack that take over all network
> functionality and provide more.
>
> What's really being asked for here is for CloudStack to provide and
> maintain a fully-fledged and featured router distribution in its
> provided virtual router. It's an admirable project to have if we can
> get support for it. My guess is there's a bit of a disconnect in
> interest though, because many (but not all) enterprises who want
> CloudStack for infrastructure automation are skeptical about a VM as
> software router and prefer to bring in aforementioned enterprise
> vendors who have their own plugins. People who provide cloud hosting
> and other services tend to use the routers, but their interest in
> enterprise level routing and redundancy varies greatly, and their
> customers are designing their apps to be resilient to infrastructure
> loss (e.g. most AWS customers). That's of course not entirely the
> whole truth, as is evidenced by the work we are seeing on redundant
> routers, but I do believe that's why we haven't seen these things from the
> beginning.
> They just haven't been all that important to the target customers,
> even though infrastructure engineers are used to providing them.
>
> So now comes my philosophy. In the end, I think the great thing about
> open source communities is that if there's the right level of
> interest, it will happen.  I'm the kind of person who feels a pang of
> stress at the idea that something I work on can't be all things to all
> people, but after building a hosting business over the last few years
> I've begun to realize that it's really only practical to try to be
> good for a subset of the market and focus on that. You'll never please
> everyone, there are limits to what you can accomplish, and sometimes
> it's OK to just concede that your product is not going to work for
> everyone. If you don't, you'll spread yourself too thin and fail
> everyone. In order to make something great you have to have a limit on
> your scope. That's not to say you don't listen to your customers, but
> you sometimes have to make hard choices on who to listen to and who to
> upset.
>
> None of this should be taken as a discouragement to the topics at
> hand, but again as someone to takes it personally when I don't deliver
> I wanted to provide some follow up to address the "rant" and try to
> provide perspective on why the things are the way they are.
>
> On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 1:58 PM, Somesh Naidu
> <Somesh.Naidu@citrix.com>
> wrote:
> > Adrian,
> >
> > Rant or not, I believe you have raised a valid point and reflect
> > certain
> group of peoples requirement.
> >
> > Based on your requirement, I believe you are looking for something
> > like
> Vyatta.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Somesh
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Adrian Lewis [mailto:adrian@alsiconsulting.co.uk]
> > Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 8:50 PM
> > To: users@cloudstack.apache.org
> > Subject: RE: Network QoS (not bandwidth limiting)
> >
> > Tempted to suggest some sort of special interest group where
> > networking people can have some input into the dev process despite
> > not necessarily being able to produce any code themselves. As an
> > example, Schuberg Philis have recently done some great work on the
> > redundant VPC VR but to a network person, this sort of functionality
> > is almost taken for granted (please don't take this as a lack of
> > appreciation).
> > Similarly, the lack of end-to-end QoS for applications running on
> > ACS seems to me at least to be a fairly significant oversight. ACS
> > is known as having very flexible networking compared with some of
> > the alternatives but there does still appear to be an enterprise
> > focus on
> most elements that a 'typical'
> > developer (dare I say it, web developer) faces but more of a home
> > network approach to the networking side (aside from some pretty
> > impressive niche features).
> >
> > We shouldn't need to rely on proprietary 3rd party products to
> > provide a similar level of versatility for networking in ACS in my
> > opinion. It seems bizarre to me that we have load balancing,
> > distributed routing & ACLs with the OVS controller, PVLANs for
> > isolation,  etc, but yet still don't have what I would consider
> > basic functions such as better control over NAT, firewalling,
> > routing (no dynamic routing protocols at all), IPsec, having to
> > specify IP related attributes to what should simply be L2 constructs
> > (why does a VPC need to be given a CIDR?!?) etc. AWS had a similar
> > issue that lead to the VPC being introduced - enterprises
> > consistently rejected the weird and illogical way that they did
> > networking back in the day that was overly focussed on
> web/cloudy workloads.
> >
> > This sounds like a rant and to an extent it is but I'd like to turn
> > it into a positive. I feel fairly helpless when the typical response
> > to feedback like this is that I should just contribute code. There
> > are a number of people that embrace the concept that the community
> > should be a collective of not just developers, but at the same time
> > it's pretty difficult to feel part of a community that's run almost
> > uniquely by developers; it's even a bit intimidating at times. I've
> > seen too many commercial companies that abandon innovation in favour
> > of satisfying the 'large account' RFC/RFPs and in my opinion the
> > same may apply to a project driven largely by the needs of those that
> > can contribute code.
> >
> > To flip the concept on its head, it would be like a network guy
> > creating an amazing cloud orchestration platform but where you can
> > only run centos
> > 6 with a LAMP stack - yes this might work for a lot of people (and
> > it would likely only be adopted by those people) but for those that
> > just want to do something a bit different, it would be a fairly
> > frustrating experience.
> >
> > Am I simply being a spoilt kid here or is there room for input that
> > might be constructive? Is there anyone here on the list with a
> > networking focus that can corroborate these concerns?
> >
> > Adrian
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Somesh Naidu [mailto:Somesh.Naidu@citrix.com]
> > Sent: 20 February 2015 18:31
> > To: users@cloudstack.apache.org
> > Subject: RE: Network QoS (not bandwidth limiting)
> >
> > I don't think we can. QoS in CS is mostly throttling traffic on the
> > virtual interface.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Somesh
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Len.Bellemore@alternativenetworks.com
> > [mailto:Len.Bellemore@alternativenetworks.com]
> > Sent: Friday, February 20, 2015 5:18 AM
> > To: users@cloudstack.apache.org
> > Subject: Network QoS (not bandwidth limiting)
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Does anyone know if it's possible to do network QoS in Cloudstack?
> > I don't mean bandwidth limiting, but rather, prioritising different
> > traffic types for voice, etc.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Len
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