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From Rajani Karuturi <raj...@apache.org>
Subject Re: CloudStack Quality Process
Date Thu, 11 Dec 2014 04:47:36 GMT
Thanks for sharing the notes. Sorry, I couldn't make it this time. Will
definitely plan to join the next meeting.

~Rajani

On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 1:27 AM, Animesh Chaturvedi <
animesh.chaturvedi@citrix.com> wrote:

> Folks
>
> We had good initial session this morning and we have started a public wiki
> [1] to allow us to collaborate. It is a scratch pad for start and we all
> will refine it as we go along. The link to recording and the chat log from
> today's meeting are also referenced in the wiki.
>
> [1]
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/CLOUDSTACK/Quality+and+Process+Improvement+Initiative
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Animesh Chaturvedi [mailto:animesh.chaturvedi@citrix.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 9:05 AM
> > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
> > Cc: Steve Wilson
> > Subject: RE: CloudStack Quality Process
> >
> > The meeting is on ...
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Animesh Chaturvedi [mailto:animesh.chaturvedi@citrix.com]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2014 8:56 PM
> > > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
> > > Cc: Steve Wilson
> > > Subject: RE: CloudStack Quality Process
> > >
> > > Yes I am planning to record the GTM
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Will Stevens [mailto:williamstevens@gmail.com]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2014 6:59 PM
> > > > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
> > > > Cc: Steve Wilson
> > > > Subject: RE: CloudStack Quality Process
> > > >
> > > > Is it possible to record the meeting? Maybe we can post it so others
> > > > can view it if they are not able to attend (or only become
> > > > interested after the first couple meetings and wants to catch up)?
> > > >
> > > > Will
> > > > On Dec 9, 2014 9:52 PM, "Animesh Chaturvedi"
> > > > <animesh.chaturvedi@citrix.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I can setup a GTM since it is free for Citrix.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here are the details.
> > > > >
> > > > > 1.  Please join my meeting.
> > > > > https://www1.gotomeeting.com/join/285394368
> > > > >
> > > > > 2.  Use your microphone and speakers (VoIP) - a headset is
> recommended.
> > > > > Or, call in using your telephone.
> > > > >
> > > > > United States: +1 (213) 493-0008
> > > > > Argentina (toll-free): 0 800 444 2385 Australia (toll-free): 1 800
> > > > > 191 358
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> > > > > 81388
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> > > > > 800
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> > > > > 800
> > > > > 123 8367 Netherlands (toll-free): 0 800 020 0178
> > > > > Netherlands: +31 (0) 208 080 759
> > > > > New Zealand (toll-free): 0 800 47 0051 New Zealand: +64 (0) 9 974
> > > > > 9579 Norway (toll-free): 800 69 055
> > > > > Norway: +47 21 04 30 59
> > > > > Panama (toll-free): 001 800 507 2789 Peru (toll-free): 0 800 55253
> > > > > Philippines (toll-free): 1 800 1110 1565 Poland (toll-free): 00
> > > > > 800
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> > > > > Arabia
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> > > > > South Africa (toll-free): 0 800 555 451 Spain (toll-free): 800 900
> > > > > 593
> > > > > Spain: +34 931 76 1534
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> > > > > Sweden: +46 (0) 852 500 691
> > > > > Switzerland (toll-free): 0 800 000 452
> > > > > Switzerland: +41 (0) 435 0026 89
> > > > > Taiwan (toll-free): 0 800 666 846
> > > > > Thailand (toll-free): 001 800 852 2442 Turkey (toll-free): 00 800
> > > > > 4488
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> > > > > (toll-free): 800 044 40444 United Kingdom (toll-free): 0 808 168
> > > > > 0209 United Kingdom: +44 (0) 20 7151 1817 United States
> (toll-free):
> > > > > 1 877
> > > > > 309 2070 Uruguay (toll-free): 000 405 4459 Viet Nam (toll-free):
> > > > > 120
> > > > > 32 148
> > > > >
> > > > > Access Code: 285-394-368
> > > > > Audio PIN: Shown after joining the meeting
> > > > >
> > > > > Meeting ID: 285-394-368
> > > > >
> > > > > GoToMeeting®
> > > > > Online Meetings Made Easy®
> > > > >
> > > > > Not at your computer? Click the link to join this meeting from
> > > > > your iPhone®, iPad® or Android® device via the GoToMeeting app.
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: Pierre-Luc Dion [mailto:pdion@cloudops.com]
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2014 11:16 AM
> > > > > > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
> > > > > > Cc: Steve Wilson
> > > > > > Subject: Re: CloudStack Quality Process
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Based on Doodle. Meeting  is schedule for  Dec 10th, 17h00 UTC.
> > > > > freenode:
> > > > > > #cloudstack-meeting unless someone have a GTM.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 10:41 AM, Daan Hoogland
> > > > > > <daan.hoogland@gmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > When do we call the result of the doodle? wait for wednesday?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 5:46 PM, Chip Childers
> > > > > > > <chipchilders@apache.org>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > Thanks for listening to my concerns folks...  and
I'll be
> > > > > > > > rooting for
> > > > > > > those
> > > > > > > > of you that are "doing" to come up with some better
> > > > > > > > practices for the community to adopt!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 5:07 PM, Animesh Chaturvedi
<
> > > > > > > > animesh.chaturvedi@citrix.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> Agreed
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > >> > From: williamstevens@gmail.com
> > > > > > > >> > [mailto:williamstevens@gmail.com] On Behalf
Of Will
> > > > > > > >> > Stevens
> > > > > > > >> > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 2:41 PM
> > > > > > > >> > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
> > > > > > > >> > Cc: Steve Wilson
> > > > > > > >> > Subject: Re: CloudStack Quality Process
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > I am speaking as a committer who has limited
insight into
> > > > > > > >> > the
> > > > > > > 'correct'
> > > > > > > >> way to do
> > > > > > > >> > this via Apache (so be gentle).  :)
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > I like the idea of a wiki page to help get
everyone on
> > > > > > > >> > the same page
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > >> to track
> > > > > > > >> > the consensus as we move forward...
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > I also agree that it is hard to come to a
consensus on
> > > > > > > >> > the list
> > > > > > > because
> > > > > > > >> it is really
> > > > > > > >> > hard to have a constructive conversation
on here in a
> > > > > > > >> > timely manner
> > > > > > > >> where the
> > > > > > > >> > different voices can be heard.
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > I think it would be interesting to schedule
> > > > > > > >> > sessions/meetings on the
> > > > > > > >> list so any
> > > > > > > >> > interested party can join.  These sessions/meetings
would
> > > > > > > >> > happen in a
> > > > > > > >> format
> > > > > > > >> > like IRC where the transcript of the session
can be later
> > > > > > > >> > posted to
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > >> list as well
> > > > > > > >> > as a summary of the transcript so it can
be reviewed by
> > > > > > > >> > any member who
> > > > > > > >> could
> > > > > > > >> > not make the meeting.  This way we keep all
of the actual
> > > > > > > >> > conversation
> > > > > > > >> in the
> > > > > > > >> > list, but we also make it easier to actually
have a
> > > > > > > >> > 'conversation' at
> > > > > > > >> the same time.
> > > > > > > >> > It is hard to beat real time when working
through this
> > > > > > > >> > sort of
> > > > > stuff.
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > Does this make sense to others?  Thoughts?
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > Will
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > *Will STEVENS*
> > > > > > > >> > Lead Developer
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > *CloudOps* *| *Cloud Solutions Experts
> > > > > > > >> > 420 rue Guy *|* Montreal *|* Quebec *|* H3J
1S6 w
> > > > > > > >> > cloudops.com
> > > > > > > >> > *|* tw @CloudOps_
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 5:17 PM, Animesh Chaturvedi
<
> > > > > > > >> > animesh.chaturvedi@citrix.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >> >
> > > > > > > >> > > Wearing my PMC hat and with past experience
on these
> > > > > > > >> > > discussions we have not made much progress
on mailing
> > > > > > > >> > > list despite agreeing on the goals and
have locked
> horns.
> > > > > > > >> > > One possibility after reading Chip's
email and concerns
> > > > > > > >> > > I see is that, we create a wiki outlining
the problem
> > > > > > > >> > > space, possible
> > > > > > > >> > > solution(s) and their specific pros
and cons and have
> > > > > > > >> > > people
> > > > > > > >> collaborate.
> > > > > > > >> > > Once a general consensus is there and
wiki is stable we
> > > > > > > >> > > can bring it back to the mailing list
for final
> approval.
> > > > > > > >> > > This is open as well as requires participant
a higher
> > > > > > > >> > > degree of commitment to collaborate
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > >> > > will be more structured.
> > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > >> > > Thanks
> > > > > > > >> > > Animesh
> > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > >> > > > On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 7:24 PM,
Chip Childers
> > > > > > > >> > > > <chipchilders@apache.org>
> > > > > > > >> > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >> > > > > Steve,
> > > > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > > > >> > > > > (Speaking with my PMC hat
on, but not as someone
> > > > > > > >> > > > > that has the
> > > > > > > time
> > > > > > > >> > > > > to help with this process)
> > > > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > > > >> > > > > I love the idea of moving
forward with resolving
> > > > > > > >> > > > > some of the quality process
/ tooling / etc...
> > > > > > > >> > > > > challenges that we face as
a project and community.
> > > > > > > >> > > > > I also love the idea that
companies
> > > > > > > getting
> > > > > > > >> > > > > commercial value from this
project are talking (as
> > > > > > > >> > > > > companies) about how to best
support the project
> > > > > > > >> > > > > through either directing their
employees to work on
> > > > > > > >> > > > > this problem, allowing those
> > > > > > > interested
> > > > > > > >> > > > > the time to do so, and / or
offering (as Citrix
> > > > > > > >> > > > > did) required hardware/software
resources to make
> > > > > > > >> > > > > improvements for the common
good.  Importantly, I
> > > > > > > >> > > > > like that the companies involved
are mutually
> > > > > > > >> > > > > agreeing that this is for
> > > > > the
> > > > > > common good.
> > > > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > > > >> > > > > That said, I have a concern
about the outline
> > > > > > > >> > > > > below,
> > > > > > > specifically
> > > > > > > >> > > > > in how the definition of approach
and eventual
> > > > > > > >> > > > > execution are
> > > > > > > >> handled.
> > > > > > > >> > > > > The proposal of taking this
off-list until there is
> > > > > > > >> > > > > a "proposal
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > >> > > ratify"
> > > > > > > >> > > > > is what I'd like to see changed.
I would fully
> > > > > > > >> > > > > expect that a fleshed out
proposal hitting the list
> > > > > > > >> > > > > would be met with more discussion
than you would
> > > > > > > >> > > > > like (and perhaps even met
with
> > > > > > > >> frustration).
> > > > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > > > >> > > > > What has worked well for us
in the past, where
> > > > > > > >> > > > > there is a need
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > >> > > > > have those interested in "doing
work" to be able to
> > > > > > > >> > > > > focus on
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > >> > > > > work, has been to start with
a call for interested
> > > > > > > >> > > > > parties (as
> > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > >> > > > > did). Then, using a combination
of threads on this
> > > > > > > >> > > > > list and
> > > > > > > "live"
> > > > > > > >> > > > > meetings, make progress on
defining the
> > > > > > > >> > > > > requirements and
> > > > > > > approach
> > > > > > > >> > incrementally.
> > > > > > > >> > > > > Execution of any work should
similarly be open and
> > > > > > > >> > > > > shared on
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > >> list.
> > > > > > > >> > > > > Throughout that process, allowing
comments and
> > > > > > > >> > > > > openings for participants
are critical.
> > > > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > > > >> > > > > One of the things we learned
about using "live"
> > > > > > > >> > > > > meetings to
> > > > > > > speed
> > > > > > > >> > > > > up the consensus process in
the past is to make
> > > > > > > >> > > > > sure that while they are fantastic
at allowing the
> > > > > > > >> > > > > participants to understand
> > > > > > > each
> > > > > > > >> > > > > other, it's critical to remember
that (1) there are
> > > > > > > >> > > > > no project decisions made
outside of the mailing
> > > > > > > >> > > > > lists and
> > > > > > > >> > > > > (2) that it's important to
have minutes or notes
> > > > > > > >> > > > > from those live meetings
> > > > > > > shared
> > > > > > > >> > > > > with the community as
> > > > > > > >> > > a
> > > > > > > >> > > > whole.
> > > > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > > > >> > > > > Now a very real concern that
some of us have is
> > > > > > > >> > > > > getting bogged down in arguments
based on opinion,
> > > > > > > >> > > > > especially the
> > > > > "drive
> > > > > > by"
> > > > > > > >> > > > > opinions. This issue (plus
challenges with people
> > > > > > > >> > > > > violently agreeing with each
other, yet talking
> > > > > > > >> > > > > past each other), is what
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > >> > > > > believe has held up meaningful
progress. To deal
> > > > > > > >> > > > > with this, I suggest we all
remember that projects
> > > > > > > >> > > > > at the ASF are about supporting
those that "DO",
> > > > > > > >> > > > > while giving opportunity for
participation and
> > > > > > > >> > > > > comment from those that might
not currently be
> > > > > > > >> > > > > "DOING". But those that are
doing the work, and
> > > > > > > >> > > > > collaborating to reach a shared
goal, shouldn't let
> > > > > > > >> > > > > a lack of 100% consensus on
> > > > > > > >> every
> > > > > > > >> > aspect hold back progress.
> > > > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > > > >> > > > > As someone who will not be
"doing" anything for
> > > > > > > >> > > > > this effort, but has an interest
in maintaining
> > > > > > > >> > > > > this community's health and
> > > > > > > seeing
> > > > > > > >> > > > > it continue to succeed, I
hope my suggestions and
> > > > > > > >> > > > > comments are
> > > > > > > >> helpful.
> > > > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > > > >> > > > > -chip
> > > > > > > >> > > > >
> > > > > > > >> > > > > On Mon, Dec 01, 2014 at 07:12:27PM
+0000, Steve
> > > > > > > >> > > > > Wilson
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >> > > > >> Hi Everyone,
> > > > > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> > > > >> It was great to get to
see a number of you at the
> > > > > > > >> > > > >> recent CCC in
> > > > > > > >> > > Budapest.
> > > > > > > >> > > > While I was there, I got to meet
face to face with
> > > > > > > >> > > > individuals working
> > > > > > > >> > > for several
> > > > > > > >> > > > companies that have a real stake
in the commercial
> > > > > > > >> > > > success of the
> > > > > > > >> > > CloudStack
> > > > > > > >> > > > project.
> > > > > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> > > > >> After joining Citrix (and
becoming involved in
> > > > > > > >> > > > >> CloudStack)
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > >> > > > >> a
> > > > > > > >> > > year ago,
> > > > > > > >> > > > I’ve come to believe that we
need to do more to
> > > > > > > >> > > > mature our quality
> > > > > > > >> > > practices
> > > > > > > >> > > > around this codebase.  We all like
to say
> > > > > > > >> > > > #cloudstackworks (and
> > > > > > > it’s
> > > > > > > >> > > true), but
> > > > > > > >> > > > this is a massive codebase that’s
used in the most
> > > > > > > >> > > > demanding
> > > > > > > >> > > situations.  We
> > > > > > > >> > > > have large telecommunications companies
and
> > > > > > > >> > > > enterprises who are betting
> > > > > > > >> > > their
> > > > > > > >> > > > businesses on this software.  It
has to be great!
> > > > > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> > > > >> There has been quite a
bit of discussion on the
> > > > > > > >> > > > >> mailing list in
> > > > > > > >> > > recent months
> > > > > > > >> > > > about how we improve in this area.
 There is plenty
> > > > > > > >> > > > of passion,
> > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > >> > > > we
> > > > > > > >> > > haven’t
> > > > > > > >> > > > made enough concrete progress as
a community.  In my
> > > > > > > >> > > > discussions with key contributors
as CCC, there was
> > > > > > > >> > > > general agreement that the DEV
list isn’t
> > > > > > > >> > > a good
> > > > > > > >> > > > forum for hashing out these kinds
of things.  Email
> > > > > > > >> > > > is too low-bandwidth
> > > > > > > >> > > and too
> > > > > > > >> > > > impersonal.
> > > > > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> > > > >> At CCC, I discussed with
several people the idea
> > > > > > > >> > > > >> that we commission a
> > > > > > > >> > > small
> > > > > > > >> > > > sub team to go hash out a proposal
for how we handle
> > > > > > > >> > > > the following topics within the
ACS community (which
> > > > > > > >> > > > can then be brought back to the
larger community for
> > > ratification):
> > > > > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> > > > >>   *   Continuous integration
and test automation
> > > > > > > >> > > > >>   *   Gating of commits
> > > > > > > >> > > > >>   *   Overall commit workflow
> > > > > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> > > > >> We are looking for volunteers
to commit to being
> > > > > > > >> > > > >> part of this
> > > > > > > >> team.
> > > > > > > >> > > This
> > > > > > > >> > > > would imply a serious commitment.
 We don’t want
> > > > > > > >> > > > hangers on or
> > > > > > > >> observers.
> > > > > > > >> > > > This will entail real work and
late night meetings.
> > > > > > > >> > > > We’re looking for
> > > > > > > >> > > people who
> > > > > > > >> > > > are serious contributors to the
codebase.
> > > > > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> > > > >> From Citrix, David Nalley
and Animesh Chaturvedi
> > > > > > > >> > > > >> have booth
> > > > > > > told
> > > > > > > >> > > > >> me
> > > > > > > >> > > they’re
> > > > > > > >> > > > willing to commit to this project.
 They’ve both
> > > > > > > >> > > > managed ACS releases
> > > > > > > >> > > and have
> > > > > > > >> > > > a really good view into the current
process — and I
> > > > > > > >> > > > know both are
> > > > > > > >> > > passionate
> > > > > > > >> > > > about improving our process.  From
my CCC
> > > > > > > >> > > > discussions, I believe there
> > > > > > > >> > > are
> > > > > > > >> > > > individuals from Schuberg Philis,
Shape Blue and
> > > > > > > >> > > > Cloud Ops who are
> > > > > > > >> > > willing to
> > > > > > > >> > > > commit to this process.
> > > > > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> > > > >> If you are willing to
be part of this team to
> > > > > > > >> > > > >> drive forward our
> > > > > > > >> > > community,
> > > > > > > >> > > > please reply here.
> > > > > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> > > > >> Thanks,
> > > > > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> > > > >> -Steve
> > > > > > > >> > > > >>
> > > > > > > >> > > > >> Steve Wilson
> > > > > > > >> > > > >> VP & Product Unit
Manager Cloud Software Citrix
> > > > > > > >> > > > >> @virtualsteve
> > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > >> > > >
> > > > > > > >> > > > --
> > > > > > > >> > > > Daan
> > > > > > > >> > >
> > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Daan
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
>

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