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From Will Stevens <williamstev...@gmail.com>
Subject RE: CloudStack Quality Process
Date Wed, 10 Dec 2014 02:59:13 GMT
Is it possible to record the meeting? Maybe we can post it so others can
view it if they are not able to attend (or only become interested after the
first couple meetings and wants to catch up)?

Will
On Dec 9, 2014 9:52 PM, "Animesh Chaturvedi" <animesh.chaturvedi@citrix.com>
wrote:

> I can setup a GTM since it is free for Citrix.
>
> Here are the details.
>
> 1.  Please join my meeting.
> https://www1.gotomeeting.com/join/285394368
>
> 2.  Use your microphone and speakers (VoIP) - a headset is recommended.
> Or, call in using your telephone.
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> Meeting ID: 285-394-368
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>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Pierre-Luc Dion [mailto:pdion@cloudops.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2014 11:16 AM
> > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
> > Cc: Steve Wilson
> > Subject: Re: CloudStack Quality Process
> >
> > Based on Doodle. Meeting  is schedule for  Dec 10th, 17h00 UTC.
> freenode:
> > #cloudstack-meeting unless someone have a GTM.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 10:41 AM, Daan Hoogland <daan.hoogland@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > When do we call the result of the doodle? wait for wednesday?
> > >
> > > On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 5:46 PM, Chip Childers
> > > <chipchilders@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Thanks for listening to my concerns folks...  and I'll be rooting
> > > > for
> > > those
> > > > of you that are "doing" to come up with some better practices for
> > > > the community to adopt!
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 5:07 PM, Animesh Chaturvedi <
> > > > animesh.chaturvedi@citrix.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Agreed
> > > >>
> > > >> > -----Original Message-----
> > > >> > From: williamstevens@gmail.com [mailto:williamstevens@gmail.com]
> > > >> > On Behalf Of Will Stevens
> > > >> > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 2:41 PM
> > > >> > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
> > > >> > Cc: Steve Wilson
> > > >> > Subject: Re: CloudStack Quality Process
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I am speaking as a committer who has limited insight into the
> > > 'correct'
> > > >> way to do
> > > >> > this via Apache (so be gentle).  :)
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I like the idea of a wiki page to help get everyone on the same
> > > >> > page
> > > and
> > > >> to track
> > > >> > the consensus as we move forward...
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I also agree that it is hard to come to a consensus on the list
> > > because
> > > >> it is really
> > > >> > hard to have a constructive conversation on here in a timely
> > > >> > manner
> > > >> where the
> > > >> > different voices can be heard.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > I think it would be interesting to schedule sessions/meetings
on
> > > >> > the
> > > >> list so any
> > > >> > interested party can join.  These sessions/meetings would happen
> > > >> > in a
> > > >> format
> > > >> > like IRC where the transcript of the session can be later posted
> > > >> > to
> > > the
> > > >> list as well
> > > >> > as a summary of the transcript so it can be reviewed by any
> > > >> > member who
> > > >> could
> > > >> > not make the meeting.  This way we keep all of the actual
> > > >> > conversation
> > > >> in the
> > > >> > list, but we also make it easier to actually have a
> > > >> > 'conversation' at
> > > >> the same time.
> > > >> > It is hard to beat real time when working through this sort of
> stuff.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Does this make sense to others?  Thoughts?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Will
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > *Will STEVENS*
> > > >> > Lead Developer
> > > >> >
> > > >> > *CloudOps* *| *Cloud Solutions Experts
> > > >> > 420 rue Guy *|* Montreal *|* Quebec *|* H3J 1S6 w cloudops.com
> > > >> > *|* tw @CloudOps_
> > > >> >
> > > >> > On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 5:17 PM, Animesh Chaturvedi <
> > > >> > animesh.chaturvedi@citrix.com> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > Wearing my PMC hat and with past experience on these
> > > >> > > discussions we have not made much progress on mailing list
> > > >> > > despite agreeing on the goals and have locked horns. One
> > > >> > > possibility after reading Chip's email and concerns I see
is
> > > >> > > that, we create a wiki outlining the problem space, possible
> > > >> > > solution(s) and their specific pros and cons and have people
> > > >> collaborate.
> > > >> > > Once a general consensus is there and wiki is stable we
can
> > > >> > > bring it back to the mailing list for final approval. This
is
> > > >> > > open as well as requires participant a higher degree of
> > > >> > > commitment to collaborate
> > > and
> > > >> > > will be more structured.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Thanks
> > > >> > > Animesh
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > > On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 7:24 PM, Chip Childers
> > > >> > > > <chipchilders@apache.org>
> > > >> > > wrote:
> > > >> > > > > Steve,
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > (Speaking with my PMC hat on, but not as someone
that has
> > > >> > > > > the
> > > time
> > > >> > > > > to help with this process)
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > I love the idea of moving forward with resolving
some of
> > > >> > > > > the quality process / tooling / etc... challenges
that we
> > > >> > > > > face as a project and community. I also love the
idea that
> > > >> > > > > companies
> > > getting
> > > >> > > > > commercial value from this project are talking
(as
> > > >> > > > > companies) about how to best support the project
through
> > > >> > > > > either directing their employees to work on this
problem,
> > > >> > > > > allowing those
> > > interested
> > > >> > > > > the time to do so, and / or offering (as Citrix
did)
> > > >> > > > > required hardware/software resources to make improvements
> > > >> > > > > for the common good.  Importantly, I like that
the
> > > >> > > > > companies involved are mutually agreeing that
this is for
> the
> > common good.
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > That said, I have a concern about the outline
below,
> > > specifically
> > > >> > > > > in how the definition of approach and eventual
execution
> > > >> > > > > are
> > > >> handled.
> > > >> > > > > The proposal of taking this off-list until there
is a
> > > >> > > > > "proposal
> > > to
> > > >> > > ratify"
> > > >> > > > > is what I'd like to see changed. I would fully
expect that
> > > >> > > > > a fleshed out proposal hitting the list would
be met with
> > > >> > > > > more discussion than you would like (and perhaps
even met
> > > >> > > > > with
> > > >> frustration).
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > What has worked well for us in the past, where
there is a
> > > >> > > > > need
> > > to
> > > >> > > > > have those interested in "doing work" to be able
to focus
> > > >> > > > > on
> > > that
> > > >> > > > > work, has been to start with a call for interested
parties
> > > >> > > > > (as
> > > you
> > > >> > > > > did). Then, using a combination of threads on
this list and
> > > "live"
> > > >> > > > > meetings, make progress on defining the requirements
and
> > > approach
> > > >> > incrementally.
> > > >> > > > > Execution of any work should similarly be open
and shared
> > > >> > > > > on
> > > this
> > > >> list.
> > > >> > > > > Throughout that process, allowing comments and
openings for
> > > >> > > > > participants are critical.
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > One of the things we learned about using "live"
meetings to
> > > speed
> > > >> > > > > up the consensus process in the past is to make
sure that
> > > >> > > > > while they are fantastic at allowing the participants
to
> > > >> > > > > understand
> > > each
> > > >> > > > > other, it's critical to remember that (1) there
are no
> > > >> > > > > project decisions made outside of the mailing
lists and (2)
> > > >> > > > > that it's important to have minutes or notes from
those
> > > >> > > > > live meetings
> > > shared
> > > >> > > > > with the community as
> > > >> > > a
> > > >> > > > whole.
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > Now a very real concern that some of us have is
getting
> > > >> > > > > bogged down in arguments based on opinion, especially
the
> "drive
> > by"
> > > >> > > > > opinions. This issue (plus challenges with people
violently
> > > >> > > > > agreeing with each other, yet talking past each
other), is
> > > >> > > > > what
> > > I
> > > >> > > > > believe has held up meaningful progress. To deal
with this,
> > > >> > > > > I suggest we all remember that projects at the
ASF are
> > > >> > > > > about supporting those that "DO", while giving
opportunity
> > > >> > > > > for participation and comment from those that
might not
> > > >> > > > > currently be "DOING". But those that are doing
the work,
> > > >> > > > > and collaborating to reach a shared goal, shouldn't
let a
> > > >> > > > > lack of 100% consensus on
> > > >> every
> > > >> > aspect hold back progress.
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > As someone who will not be "doing" anything for
this
> > > >> > > > > effort, but has an interest in maintaining this
community's
> > > >> > > > > health and
> > > seeing
> > > >> > > > > it continue to succeed, I hope my suggestions
and comments
> > > >> > > > > are
> > > >> helpful.
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > -chip
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > On Mon, Dec 01, 2014 at 07:12:27PM +0000, Steve
Wilson
> wrote:
> > > >> > > > >> Hi Everyone,
> > > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > > > >> It was great to get to see a number of you
at the recent
> > > >> > > > >> CCC in
> > > >> > > Budapest.
> > > >> > > > While I was there, I got to meet face to face with
> > > >> > > > individuals working
> > > >> > > for several
> > > >> > > > companies that have a real stake in the commercial
success of
> > > >> > > > the
> > > >> > > CloudStack
> > > >> > > > project.
> > > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > > > >> After joining Citrix (and becoming involved
in CloudStack)
> > > about
> > > >> > > > >> a
> > > >> > > year ago,
> > > >> > > > I’ve come to believe that we need to do more to mature
our
> > > >> > > > quality
> > > >> > > practices
> > > >> > > > around this codebase.  We all like to say #cloudstackworks
> > > >> > > > (and
> > > it’s
> > > >> > > true), but
> > > >> > > > this is a massive codebase that’s used in the most
demanding
> > > >> > > situations.  We
> > > >> > > > have large telecommunications companies and enterprises
who
> > > >> > > > are betting
> > > >> > > their
> > > >> > > > businesses on this software.  It has to be great!
> > > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > > > >> There has been quite a bit of discussion on
the mailing
> > > >> > > > >> list in
> > > >> > > recent months
> > > >> > > > about how we improve in this area.  There is plenty
of
> > > >> > > > passion,
> > > but
> > > >> > > > we
> > > >> > > haven’t
> > > >> > > > made enough concrete progress as a community.  In my
> > > >> > > > discussions with key contributors as CCC, there was
general
> > > >> > > > agreement that the DEV list isn’t
> > > >> > > a good
> > > >> > > > forum for hashing out these kinds of things.  Email
is too
> > > >> > > > low-bandwidth
> > > >> > > and too
> > > >> > > > impersonal.
> > > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > > > >> At CCC, I discussed with several people the
idea that we
> > > >> > > > >> commission a
> > > >> > > small
> > > >> > > > sub team to go hash out a proposal for how we handle
the
> > > >> > > > following topics within the ACS community (which can
then be
> > > >> > > > brought back to the larger community for ratification):
> > > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > > > >>   *   Continuous integration and test automation
> > > >> > > > >>   *   Gating of commits
> > > >> > > > >>   *   Overall commit workflow
> > > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > > > >> We are looking for volunteers to commit to
being part of
> > > >> > > > >> this
> > > >> team.
> > > >> > > This
> > > >> > > > would imply a serious commitment.  We don’t want
hangers on
> > > >> > > > or
> > > >> observers.
> > > >> > > > This will entail real work and late night meetings.
 We’re
> > > >> > > > looking for
> > > >> > > people who
> > > >> > > > are serious contributors to the codebase.
> > > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > > > >> From Citrix, David Nalley and Animesh Chaturvedi
have
> > > >> > > > >> booth
> > > told
> > > >> > > > >> me
> > > >> > > they’re
> > > >> > > > willing to commit to this project.  They’ve both
managed ACS
> > > >> > > > releases
> > > >> > > and have
> > > >> > > > a really good view into the current process — and
I know both
> > > >> > > > are
> > > >> > > passionate
> > > >> > > > about improving our process.  From my CCC discussions,
I
> > > >> > > > believe there
> > > >> > > are
> > > >> > > > individuals from Schuberg Philis, Shape Blue and Cloud
Ops
> > > >> > > > who are
> > > >> > > willing to
> > > >> > > > commit to this process.
> > > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > > > >> If you are willing to be part of this team
to drive
> > > >> > > > >> forward our
> > > >> > > community,
> > > >> > > > please reply here.
> > > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > > > >> Thanks,
> > > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > > > >> -Steve
> > > >> > > > >>
> > > >> > > > >> Steve Wilson
> > > >> > > > >> VP & Product Unit Manager
> > > >> > > > >> Cloud Software
> > > >> > > > >> Citrix
> > > >> > > > >> @virtualsteve
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > --
> > > >> > > > Daan
> > > >> > >
> > > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Daan
> > >
>

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