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From Stephen Turner <Stephen.Tur...@citrix.com>
Subject RE: CloudStack Quality Process
Date Tue, 16 Dec 2014 14:01:39 GMT
The recording is at the bottom of https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/CLOUDSTACK/Quality+and+Process+Improvement+Initiative.

-- 
Stephen Turner


-----Original Message-----
From: Nux! [mailto:nux@li.nux.ro] 
Sent: 16 December 2014 13:53
To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
Cc: Steve Wilson
Subject: Re: CloudStack Quality Process

Thanks, I'll also want to watch the recording.

--
Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!

Nux!
www.nux.ro

----- Original Message -----
> From: "Animesh Chaturvedi" <animesh.chaturvedi@citrix.com>
> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
> Cc: "Steve Wilson" <steve.wilson@citrix.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, 10 December, 2014 04:55:31
> Subject: RE: CloudStack Quality Process

> Yes I am planning to record the GTM
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Will Stevens [mailto:williamstevens@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2014 6:59 PM
>> To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
>> Cc: Steve Wilson
>> Subject: RE: CloudStack Quality Process
>> 
>> Is it possible to record the meeting? Maybe we can post it so others 
>> can view it if they are not able to attend (or only become interested 
>> after the first couple meetings and wants to catch up)?
>> 
>> Will
>> On Dec 9, 2014 9:52 PM, "Animesh Chaturvedi" 
>> <animesh.chaturvedi@citrix.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>> > I can setup a GTM since it is free for Citrix.
>> >
>> > Here are the details.
>> >
>> > 1.  Please join my meeting.
>> > https://www1.gotomeeting.com/join/285394368
>> >
>> > 2.  Use your microphone and speakers (VoIP) - a headset is recommended.
>> > Or, call in using your telephone.
>> >
>> > United States: +1 (213) 493-0008
>> > Argentina (toll-free): 0 800 444 2385 Australia (toll-free): 1 800 
>> > 191 358
>> > Australia: +61 2 9091 7603
>> > Austria (toll-free): 0 800 080061
>> > Austria: +43 (0) 7 2088 0716
>> > Bahrain (toll-free): 800 81 305
>> > Belarus (toll-free): 8 820 0011 0331 Belgium (toll-free): 0 800 
>> > 81388
>> > Belgium: +32 (0) 28 08 4372
>> > Brazil (toll-free): 0 800 047 4909
>> > Bulgaria (toll-free): 00800 120 4413 Canada (toll-free): 1 877 777 
>> > 3281
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>> > Chile (toll-free): 800 395 146
>> > China (toll-free): 4008 866154
>> > Colombia (toll-free): 01 800 012 9057 Czech Republic (toll-free): 
>> > 800 500453 Denmark (toll-free): 8025 0919
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>> > Finland (toll-free): 0 800 94473
>> > Finland: +358 (0) 931 58 1773
>> > France (toll-free): 0 805 541 052
>> > France: +33 (0) 170 950 590
>> > Germany (toll-free): 0 800 184 4230
>> > Germany: +49 (0) 692 5736 7300
>> > Greece (toll-free): 00 800 4414 4282 Hong Kong (toll-free): 
>> > 30774812 Hungary (toll-free): (06) 80 986 259 Iceland (toll-free): 
>> > 800 9993 India (toll-free): 000 800 100 8227 Indonesia (toll-free): 
>> > 001 803 020 2563 Ireland (toll-free): 1 800 818
>> > 263
>> > Ireland: +353 (0) 15 133 006
>> > Israel (toll-free): 1 809 388 020
>> > Italy (toll-free): 800 792289
>> > Italy: +39 0 699 26 68 65
>> > Japan (toll-free): 0 120 242 200
>> > Korea, Republic of (toll-free): 0806180880 Luxembourg (toll-free): 
>> > 800
>> > 81016 Malaysia (toll-free): 1 800 81 6860 Mexico (toll-free): 01 
>> > 800
>> > 123 8367 Netherlands (toll-free): 0 800 020 0178
>> > Netherlands: +31 (0) 208 080 759
>> > New Zealand (toll-free): 0 800 47 0051 New Zealand: +64 (0) 9 974 
>> > 9579 Norway (toll-free): 800 69 055
>> > Norway: +47 21 04 30 59
>> > Panama (toll-free): 001 800 507 2789 Peru (toll-free): 0 800 55253 
>> > Philippines (toll-free): 1 800 1110 1565 Poland (toll-free): 00 800
>> > 3211434 Portugal (toll-free): 800 180 139 Romania (toll-free): 0 
>> > 800
>> > 410 025 Russian Federation (toll-free): 8 800 100 6914 Saudi Arabia
>> > (toll-free): 800 844 3636 Singapore (toll-free): 800 101 3000 South 
>> > Africa (toll-free): 0 800 555 451 Spain (toll-free): 800 900 593
>> > Spain: +34 931 76 1534
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>> > 4488
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>> > (toll-free): 800 044 40444 United Kingdom (toll-free): 0 808 168 
>> > 0209 United Kingdom: +44 (0) 20 7151 1817 United States 
>> > (toll-free): 1 877
>> > 309 2070 Uruguay (toll-free): 000 405 4459 Viet Nam (toll-free): 
>> > 120
>> > 32 148
>> >
>> > Access Code: 285-394-368
>> > Audio PIN: Shown after joining the meeting
>> >
>> > Meeting ID: 285-394-368
>> >
>> > GoToMeeting®
>> > Online Meetings Made Easy®
>> >
>> > Not at your computer? Click the link to join this meeting from your 
>> > iPhone®, iPad® or Android® device via the GoToMeeting app.
>> >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: Pierre-Luc Dion [mailto:pdion@cloudops.com]
>> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2014 11:16 AM
>> > > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
>> > > Cc: Steve Wilson
>> > > Subject: Re: CloudStack Quality Process
>> > >
>> > > Based on Doodle. Meeting  is schedule for  Dec 10th, 17h00 UTC.
>> > freenode:
>> > > #cloudstack-meeting unless someone have a GTM.
>> > >
>> > > Regards,
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 10:41 AM, Daan Hoogland 
>> > > <daan.hoogland@gmail.com>
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > When do we call the result of the doodle? wait for wednesday?
>> > > >
>> > > > On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 5:46 PM, Chip Childers 
>> > > > <chipchilders@apache.org>
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > > > Thanks for listening to my concerns folks...  and I'll be 
>> > > > > rooting for
>> > > > those
>> > > > > of you that are "doing" to come up with some better practices

>> > > > > for the community to adopt!
>> > > > >
>> > > > > On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 5:07 PM, Animesh Chaturvedi < 
>> > > > > animesh.chaturvedi@citrix.com> wrote:
>> > > > >
>> > > > >> Agreed
>> > > > >>
>> > > > >> > -----Original Message-----
>> > > > >> > From: williamstevens@gmail.com 
>> > > > >> > [mailto:williamstevens@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Will

>> > > > >> > Stevens
>> > > > >> > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 2:41 PM
>> > > > >> > To: dev@cloudstack.apache.org
>> > > > >> > Cc: Steve Wilson
>> > > > >> > Subject: Re: CloudStack Quality Process
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > I am speaking as a committer who has limited insight
into 
>> > > > >> > the
>> > > > 'correct'
>> > > > >> way to do
>> > > > >> > this via Apache (so be gentle).  :)
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > I like the idea of a wiki page to help get everyone
on the 
>> > > > >> > same page
>> > > > and
>> > > > >> to track
>> > > > >> > the consensus as we move forward...
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > I also agree that it is hard to come to a consensus
on the 
>> > > > >> > list
>> > > > because
>> > > > >> it is really
>> > > > >> > hard to have a constructive conversation on here in
a 
>> > > > >> > timely manner
>> > > > >> where the
>> > > > >> > different voices can be heard.
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > I think it would be interesting to schedule 
>> > > > >> > sessions/meetings on the
>> > > > >> list so any
>> > > > >> > interested party can join.  These sessions/meetings
would 
>> > > > >> > happen in a
>> > > > >> format
>> > > > >> > like IRC where the transcript of the session can be
later 
>> > > > >> > posted to
>> > > > the
>> > > > >> list as well
>> > > > >> > as a summary of the transcript so it can be reviewed
by 
>> > > > >> > any member who
>> > > > >> could
>> > > > >> > not make the meeting.  This way we keep all of the actual

>> > > > >> > conversation
>> > > > >> in the
>> > > > >> > list, but we also make it easier to actually have a

>> > > > >> > 'conversation' at
>> > > > >> the same time.
>> > > > >> > It is hard to beat real time when working through this

>> > > > >> > sort of
>> > stuff.
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > Does this make sense to others?  Thoughts?
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > Will
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > *Will STEVENS*
>> > > > >> > Lead Developer
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > *CloudOps* *| *Cloud Solutions Experts
>> > > > >> > 420 rue Guy *|* Montreal *|* Quebec *|* H3J 1S6 w 
>> > > > >> > cloudops.com
>> > > > >> > *|* tw @CloudOps_
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 5:17 PM, Animesh Chaturvedi <

>> > > > >> > animesh.chaturvedi@citrix.com> wrote:
>> > > > >> >
>> > > > >> > > Wearing my PMC hat and with past experience on
these 
>> > > > >> > > discussions we have not made much progress on mailing

>> > > > >> > > list despite agreeing on the goals and have locked

>> > > > >> > > horns. One possibility after reading Chip's email
and 
>> > > > >> > > concerns I see is that, we create a wiki outlining
the 
>> > > > >> > > problem space, possible
>> > > > >> > > solution(s) and their specific pros and cons and
have 
>> > > > >> > > people
>> > > > >> collaborate.
>> > > > >> > > Once a general consensus is there and wiki is stable
we 
>> > > > >> > > can bring it back to the mailing list for final

>> > > > >> > > approval. This is open as well as requires participant
a 
>> > > > >> > > higher degree of commitment to collaborate
>> > > > and
>> > > > >> > > will be more structured.
>> > > > >> > >
>> > > > >> > > Thanks
>> > > > >> > > Animesh
>> > > > >> > >
>> > > > >> > > > On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 7:24 PM, Chip Childers

>> > > > >> > > > <chipchilders@apache.org>
>> > > > >> > > wrote:
>> > > > >> > > > > Steve,
>> > > > >> > > > >
>> > > > >> > > > > (Speaking with my PMC hat on, but not
as someone 
>> > > > >> > > > > that has the
>> > > > time
>> > > > >> > > > > to help with this process)
>> > > > >> > > > >
>> > > > >> > > > > I love the idea of moving forward with
resolving 
>> > > > >> > > > > some of the quality process / tooling
/ etc... 
>> > > > >> > > > > challenges that we face as a project
and community. 
>> > > > >> > > > > I also love the idea that companies
>> > > > getting
>> > > > >> > > > > commercial value from this project are
talking (as
>> > > > >> > > > > companies) about how to best support
the project 
>> > > > >> > > > > through either directing their employees
to work on 
>> > > > >> > > > > this problem, allowing those
>> > > > interested
>> > > > >> > > > > the time to do so, and / or offering
(as Citrix did) 
>> > > > >> > > > > required hardware/software resources
to make 
>> > > > >> > > > > improvements for the common good.  Importantly,
I 
>> > > > >> > > > > like that the companies involved are
mutually 
>> > > > >> > > > > agreeing that this is for
>> > the
>> > > common good.
>> > > > >> > > > >
>> > > > >> > > > > That said, I have a concern about the
outline below,
>> > > > specifically
>> > > > >> > > > > in how the definition of approach and
eventual 
>> > > > >> > > > > execution are
>> > > > >> handled.
>> > > > >> > > > > The proposal of taking this off-list
until there is 
>> > > > >> > > > > a "proposal
>> > > > to
>> > > > >> > > ratify"
>> > > > >> > > > > is what I'd like to see changed. I would
fully 
>> > > > >> > > > > expect that a fleshed out proposal hitting
the list 
>> > > > >> > > > > would be met with more discussion than
you would 
>> > > > >> > > > > like (and perhaps even met with
>> > > > >> frustration).
>> > > > >> > > > >
>> > > > >> > > > > What has worked well for us in the past,
where there 
>> > > > >> > > > > is a need
>> > > > to
>> > > > >> > > > > have those interested in "doing work"
to be able to 
>> > > > >> > > > > focus on
>> > > > that
>> > > > >> > > > > work, has been to start with a call for
interested 
>> > > > >> > > > > parties (as
>> > > > you
>> > > > >> > > > > did). Then, using a combination of threads
on this 
>> > > > >> > > > > list and
>> > > > "live"
>> > > > >> > > > > meetings, make progress on defining the
requirements 
>> > > > >> > > > > and
>> > > > approach
>> > > > >> > incrementally.
>> > > > >> > > > > Execution of any work should similarly
be open and 
>> > > > >> > > > > shared on
>> > > > this
>> > > > >> list.
>> > > > >> > > > > Throughout that process, allowing comments
and 
>> > > > >> > > > > openings for participants are critical.
>> > > > >> > > > >
>> > > > >> > > > > One of the things we learned about using
"live"
>> > > > >> > > > > meetings to
>> > > > speed
>> > > > >> > > > > up the consensus process in the past
is to make sure 
>> > > > >> > > > > that while they are fantastic at allowing
the 
>> > > > >> > > > > participants to understand
>> > > > each
>> > > > >> > > > > other, it's critical to remember that
(1) there are 
>> > > > >> > > > > no project decisions made outside of
the mailing 
>> > > > >> > > > > lists and
>> > > > >> > > > > (2) that it's important to have minutes
or notes 
>> > > > >> > > > > from those live meetings
>> > > > shared
>> > > > >> > > > > with the community as
>> > > > >> > > a
>> > > > >> > > > whole.
>> > > > >> > > > >
>> > > > >> > > > > Now a very real concern that some of
us have is 
>> > > > >> > > > > getting bogged down in arguments based
on opinion, 
>> > > > >> > > > > especially the
>> > "drive
>> > > by"
>> > > > >> > > > > opinions. This issue (plus challenges
with people 
>> > > > >> > > > > violently agreeing with each other, yet
talking past 
>> > > > >> > > > > each other), is what
>> > > > I
>> > > > >> > > > > believe has held up meaningful progress.
To deal 
>> > > > >> > > > > with this, I suggest we all remember
that projects 
>> > > > >> > > > > at the ASF are about supporting those
that "DO", 
>> > > > >> > > > > while giving opportunity for participation
and 
>> > > > >> > > > > comment from those that might not currently
be 
>> > > > >> > > > > "DOING". But those that are doing the
work, and 
>> > > > >> > > > > collaborating to reach a shared goal,
shouldn't let 
>> > > > >> > > > > a lack of 100% consensus on
>> > > > >> every
>> > > > >> > aspect hold back progress.
>> > > > >> > > > >
>> > > > >> > > > > As someone who will not be "doing" anything
for this 
>> > > > >> > > > > effort, but has an interest in maintaining
this 
>> > > > >> > > > > community's health and
>> > > > seeing
>> > > > >> > > > > it continue to succeed, I hope my suggestions
and 
>> > > > >> > > > > comments are
>> > > > >> helpful.
>> > > > >> > > > >
>> > > > >> > > > > -chip
>> > > > >> > > > >
>> > > > >> > > > > On Mon, Dec 01, 2014 at 07:12:27PM +0000,
Steve 
>> > > > >> > > > > Wilson
>> > wrote:
>> > > > >> > > > >> Hi Everyone,
>> > > > >> > > > >>
>> > > > >> > > > >> It was great to get to see a number
of you at the 
>> > > > >> > > > >> recent CCC in
>> > > > >> > > Budapest.
>> > > > >> > > > While I was there, I got to meet face to face
with 
>> > > > >> > > > individuals working
>> > > > >> > > for several
>> > > > >> > > > companies that have a real stake in the commercial

>> > > > >> > > > success of the
>> > > > >> > > CloudStack
>> > > > >> > > > project.
>> > > > >> > > > >>
>> > > > >> > > > >> After joining Citrix (and becoming
involved in
>> > > > >> > > > >> CloudStack)
>> > > > about
>> > > > >> > > > >> a
>> > > > >> > > year ago,
>> > > > >> > > > I’ve come to believe that we need to do
more to mature 
>> > > > >> > > > our quality
>> > > > >> > > practices
>> > > > >> > > > around this codebase.  We all like to say

>> > > > >> > > > #cloudstackworks (and
>> > > > it’s
>> > > > >> > > true), but
>> > > > >> > > > this is a massive codebase that’s used in
the most 
>> > > > >> > > > demanding
>> > > > >> > > situations.  We
>> > > > >> > > > have large telecommunications companies and

>> > > > >> > > > enterprises who are betting
>> > > > >> > > their
>> > > > >> > > > businesses on this software.  It has to be
great!
>> > > > >> > > > >>
>> > > > >> > > > >> There has been quite a bit of discussion
on the 
>> > > > >> > > > >> mailing list in
>> > > > >> > > recent months
>> > > > >> > > > about how we improve in this area.  There
is plenty of 
>> > > > >> > > > passion,
>> > > > but
>> > > > >> > > > we
>> > > > >> > > haven’t
>> > > > >> > > > made enough concrete progress as a community.
 In my 
>> > > > >> > > > discussions with key contributors as CCC,
there was 
>> > > > >> > > > general agreement that the DEV list isn’t
>> > > > >> > > a good
>> > > > >> > > > forum for hashing out these kinds of things.
 Email is 
>> > > > >> > > > too low-bandwidth
>> > > > >> > > and too
>> > > > >> > > > impersonal.
>> > > > >> > > > >>
>> > > > >> > > > >> At CCC, I discussed with several
people the idea 
>> > > > >> > > > >> that we commission a
>> > > > >> > > small
>> > > > >> > > > sub team to go hash out a proposal for how
we handle 
>> > > > >> > > > the following topics within the ACS community
(which 
>> > > > >> > > > can then be brought back to the larger community
for ratification):
>> > > > >> > > > >>
>> > > > >> > > > >>   *   Continuous integration and
test automation
>> > > > >> > > > >>   *   Gating of commits
>> > > > >> > > > >>   *   Overall commit workflow
>> > > > >> > > > >>
>> > > > >> > > > >> We are looking for volunteers to
commit to being 
>> > > > >> > > > >> part of this
>> > > > >> team.
>> > > > >> > > This
>> > > > >> > > > would imply a serious commitment.  We don’t
want 
>> > > > >> > > > hangers on or
>> > > > >> observers.
>> > > > >> > > > This will entail real work and late night
meetings.
>> > > > >> > > > We’re looking for
>> > > > >> > > people who
>> > > > >> > > > are serious contributors to the codebase.
>> > > > >> > > > >>
>> > > > >> > > > >> From Citrix, David Nalley and Animesh
Chaturvedi 
>> > > > >> > > > >> have booth
>> > > > told
>> > > > >> > > > >> me
>> > > > >> > > they’re
>> > > > >> > > > willing to commit to this project.  They’ve
both 
>> > > > >> > > > managed ACS releases
>> > > > >> > > and have
>> > > > >> > > > a really good view into the current process
— and I 
>> > > > >> > > > know both are
>> > > > >> > > passionate
>> > > > >> > > > about improving our process.  From my CCC
discussions, 
>> > > > >> > > > I believe there
>> > > > >> > > are
>> > > > >> > > > individuals from Schuberg Philis, Shape Blue
and Cloud 
>> > > > >> > > > Ops who are
>> > > > >> > > willing to
>> > > > >> > > > commit to this process.
>> > > > >> > > > >>
>> > > > >> > > > >> If you are willing to be part of
this team to drive 
>> > > > >> > > > >> forward our
>> > > > >> > > community,
>> > > > >> > > > please reply here.
>> > > > >> > > > >>
>> > > > >> > > > >> Thanks,
>> > > > >> > > > >>
>> > > > >> > > > >> -Steve
>> > > > >> > > > >>
>> > > > >> > > > >> Steve Wilson
>> > > > >> > > > >> VP & Product Unit Manager Cloud
Software Citrix 
>> > > > >> > > > >> @virtualsteve
>> > > > >> > > >
>> > > > >> > > >
>> > > > >> > > >
>> > > > >> > > > --
>> > > > >> > > > Daan
>> > > > >> > >
>> > > > >>
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > --
>> > > > Daan
>> > > >
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