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From "ChunFeng" <chunf...@domolo.com>
Subject Re: [DISCUSS] LTS Releases
Date Thu, 27 Nov 2014 10:36:46 GMT
hi,


LTS means Long Term Support  , for ubuntu means 5 years support for both desktop and server
distributions.  If we adopt to release cloudstack's LTS version , how many years should we
support ?  5 years ? of course can not accept ! even 3 years may be too long to old for support
as a IAAS management software .  2 or 1 years ?  this should not call LTS version .


Second ,the time span for ubuntu release next new LTS version is every 2 years . Then , consider
the first question , what kind of years interval should we take?


Third, even if the above two issues is false positive , how should we name the LTS release
version's  ? such as:  CloudStack-LTS-4.x-201401 ,  CloudStack-LTS-4.X-201402  etc , this
may cause a more confuse to end-users to make a right choice . 


IMO ,  if a software could  automatically upgrade to newer version  by just one or fews clickes
, which kind software is suitable for  LTS release mechanism , otherwise the cost for end-user
to  upgrade from the older one to newer which will be same as user to choice next release
version, ie reinstall   . 


as Hugo, sebgoa and Andrija  said: " we need a WAY to focus here on FIXING, POLISHING ", "then
LTS becomes less important"  and "  I’m not in favor of supporting LTS releases as a community.
"


------------------



Regards,


ChunFeng




 

 
 
 
------------------ Original ------------------
From:  "sebgoa"<runseb@gmail.com>;
Date:  Thu, Nov 27, 2014 05:14 PM
To:  "dev"<dev@cloudstack.apache.org>; 

Subject:  Re: [DISCUSS] LTS Releases

 

On Nov 27, 2014, at 9:01 AM, Andrija Panic <andrija.panic@gmail.com> wrote:

> my 2 cents again:
> 
> Whether we have this LTS release or not - is not just about having release
> - we need a WAY to focus here on FIXING, POLISHING product and more
> important to stimulate/make developers interested in doing so.
> If this was company owned product, it would be very easy to set goals, and
> then speak to devs, fix this, fix that.
> 
> Since this is ofcourse comunity based product - we need some way of
> focusing on fixing the stuff, and really stop adding features (maybe not
> completely quit adding features, but...)
> 
> One important note, and possible scenario - just by having LTS release, but
> still having majority of developer working on non-LTS release (ading new
> features) is a big probability, and then we are back to zero with our
> progress, so I guess this is also an option/problem that we need to
> consider.
> 
> I have a very nice experience with CloudStack so far (in general, except
> being frustrated by some childish problems) - if this was all polished, and
> documentation complete - I'm 100% sure there will be no better cloud
> project on the market any time soon, and I really mean it !
> 
> It is my wish (and I hope of others) to see CloudStack migrate from
> #CloudstackWorks to #CloudStackRocks for the next CCC and I think this is
> VERY much possible.
> 

Thanks for this Andrija, it made my morning :)

I am of the opinion that if/when we improve our committing habits, we will have high confidence
that every bug fixed in a release branch will also be fixed in the next release.

Little process changing that we are making, like using github PR, merging back to master etc,
will help us get into somewhat of a rolling release. 

If we take great care with our upgrade paths and avoid regressions then LTS becomes less important.
We have had some challenges with 4.4 and the fact that 4.3 is solid makes it natural to want
to keep 4.3 alive and patched.

I don't use cloudstack in production so I will differ to those who do on this.

What we do need is higher involvement of users in testing and voting on the releases early.

-Sebastien

> 
> 
> On 26 November 2014 at 22:40, Pierre-Luc Dion <pdion891@apache.org> wrote:
> 
>> I'm not really in favor of LTS support, it's a good idea, but not sure it
>> can be backed by the community?[open question here ;)]. I don't think it
>> fit in our current model for few reasons:
>> 
>> - Upgrade path might become impossible as patches become part of multiple
>> versions. We could end up with problem at database schema with the current
>> db upgrade model.
>> 
>> - Enforcing user to stay on a legacy ACS release disallow usage of future
>> hypervisor version, Guest OSes and new hardware used by hypervisors. As
>> hypervisors will become out of date, they won't be able to support new
>> Guest OSes and new hardware.
>> 
>> - I think the initiative would dilute the effort on the upgrade path and
>> making sure the upgrade path is easy and always work. Since 4.3.1 as been
>> released after 4.4.0, do we know if a 4.3.1 can be upgrade to 4.4.1 or
>> event 4.5?
>> 
>> - Contribution to ACS and bugfixing become nightmare  as bugfix might end
>> up in 4 branches (4.3, 4.4, 4.5, master,...)
>> 
>> Why not as community (let's face it, not very a big one) we all focus on
>> the next 4.5 version, make sure it's properly tested, make sure upgrade
>> "just work"  and have ACS 4 as the LTS ? ;-)
>> 
>> I know a production system is not likely to run the latest version of ACS
>> and upgrade of such a prod tool can occur maybe one or two time a year.
>> 
>> That's just my opinion on the subject, nothing against anyone or to block
>> the idea.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 11:35 AM, Hugo Trippaers <hugo@trippaers.nl>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Top posting here as my remarks are mainly on the original topic.
>>> 
>>> I’m not in favor of supporting LTS releases as a community. The reasoning
>>> here is that there is a huge chance that we will fragment the community
>> in
>>> people that just want to work on the latest and greatest and some other
>>> folks who are trying to keep older releases from being updated with newer
>>> fixes. It requires a lot of dedicated commitment to keep an LTS release
>>> going. Particularly if you yourself are already working with a newer
>>> release in your environment. So from a personal standpoint i can almost
>>> guarantee that i will probably not spend the time and effort of back
>>> porting any fixes i do to older versions of CloudStack.
>>> 
>>> That doesn’t mean that it can’t happen. If people are willing to take
>>> charge of an LTS branch and are willing to do the work to back port fixes
>>> where appropriate i would happily support them and even try to test the
>>> releases so we can have an official release.
>>> 
>>> New developers might also be scared by the fact that a fix they make has
>>> to be supported on multiple branches and might decide not to commit such
>> a
>>> fix because of the work involved. With the rate of change in the code at
>>> the moment this is also very hard for seasoned developers, so much
>> little,
>>> but important stuff changes all the time that back porting is very
>>> difficult. It is an open source project and generally people will want to
>>> focus on the latest and greatest and just get their features in. I’m
>>> already regularly having some trouble back porting between master and
>> 4.5.
>>> Consider back porting to master, 4.5 and 4.3 as well and having to test
>>> each branch.
>>> 
>>> Basically my point is, everyone who wants to LTS support a certain branch
>>> is free to do so. Whether or not other contributors or committers will
>> want
>>> to do that is their choice. As a community we should not make any
>> promises
>>> about LTS support for a certain branch.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> Hugo
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 25 nov. 2014, at 16:16, Rohit Yadav <rohit.yadav@shapeblue.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hey Daan,
>>>> 
>>>>> On 25-Nov-2014, at 7:26 pm, Daan Hoogland <daan.hoogland@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> That is worrying, Rohit. As the rest of your mail is already a vote of
>>>>> distrust, this part says we should not release 4.4.2 as it contains
>>>>> regressions.
>>>> 
>>>> Looks like you skimmed my email and missed the following from my
>>> previous email:
>>>> “Note: This is not to say that 4.4.x is not stable, we’re simply saying
>>> we recommend 4.3.x because we have a confidence of its stability and we
>>> encourage serious CloudStack users to use it.”
>>>> 
>>>> 4.4.x is probably the greatest ACS feature release ever but I would
>>> still recommend conservative users (who consult me) to stick to 4.3.x for
>>> production since we know it just works with least amount of pain. The
>> other
>>> issue is I know a lot of people who are on ACS 4.3.x still (including
>>> ShapeBlue’s customers) want to have bugfix releases and they may not want
>>> to migrate to 4.4.x right now since 4.5.x is about 2–3 months away.
>>>> 
>>>> ACS when consumed by enterprise companies has a typical lifecycle that
>>> lasts at least 6 months, that means someone needs to support it,
>> therefore
>>> the idea of official LTS releases.
>>>> 
>>>>> This is a very bad signal to users and the rest of the
>>>>> community. What you are saying is (you in transitive form), 'we won't
>>>>> port fixes to 4.4 but only to 4.3 so upgrade to newer 4.3 versions and
>>>>> not to a 4.4 version. You have the right to do so but I don't like it.
>>>> 
>>>> In any form I did not say anything about not helping out or not porting
>>> things. People who know me, know that I love to help everyone and I’m
>> quite
>>> prompt at reply and resolving things. I’ve taken the task to maintain 4.3
>>> and you’re very welcome to go thorough JIRA etc. to backport things that
>>> you want for 4.4 since you’re alone the gatekeeper of this branch.
>>>> 
>>>> I’m going through these bugs that have a different fix version (not
>>> 4.3.0 or 4.3.1): https://issues.apache.org/jira/issues/?filter=12329775
>>>> 
>>>> Wido suggested that backporting is time consuming so as a challenge
>> I’ve
>>> went through 50 issues today, I was able to understand/backport about 25
>> of
>>> them that qualified for 4.3 branch (many of them were trivial,
>>> 
>> https://git-wip-us.apache.org/repos/asf?p=cloudstack.git;a=commit;h=f72eb945540e607ff25917922b4084187246f31a
>> ),
>>> about 10 of them were hard to backport so I’ve asked authors to help
>> out. I
>>> think with this speed I alone should be able to go through like 300
>> issues
>>> reported on JIRA in about 10-15 days time and after than about 10-20 days
>>> of testing and getting the bugfix release out. Though if we all help out
>> we
>>> can get more mileage.
>>>> 
>>>> It sucks for me personally that I’ve been emailing you privately about
>>> cherry-pick and asking you to pick them on 4.4 (also leaving messages on
>>> JIRA). I’ll continue to do that :) and meanwhile, you are very welcome to
>>> go see the things I picked on 4.3 and pick those applicable on 4.4.
>>>> 
>>>> Yours friendly and as always,
>>>> 
>>>> Rohit Yadav
>>>> Software Architect, ShapeBlue
>>>> M. +91 88 262 30892 | rohit.yadav@shapeblue.com
>>>> Blog: bhaisaab.org | Twitter: @_bhaisaab
>>>> 
>>>> Find out more about ShapeBlue and our range of CloudStack related
>>> services
>>>> 
>>>> IaaS Cloud Design & Build<
>>> http://shapeblue.com/iaas-cloud-design-and-build//>
>>>> CSForge – rapid IaaS deployment framework<
>> http://shapeblue.com/csforge/>
>>>> CloudStack Consulting<http://shapeblue.com/cloudstack-consultancy/>
>>>> CloudStack Software Engineering<
>>> http://shapeblue.com/cloudstack-software-engineering/>
>>>> CloudStack Infrastructure Support<
>>> http://shapeblue.com/cloudstack-infrastructure-support/>
>>>> CloudStack Bootcamp Training Courses<
>>> http://shapeblue.com/cloudstack-training/>
>>>> 
>>>> This email and any attachments to it may be confidential and are
>>> intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed.
>> Any
>>> views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not
>>> necessarily represent those of Shape Blue Ltd or related companies. If
>> you
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>> is
>>> a registered trademark.
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Andrija Panić
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