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From Bruno René Santos <>
Subject Re: [OT] You're all a bunch of Cake Mixers
Date Wed, 19 Oct 2011 10:54:41 GMT
Hey Hugi,

Continuing the off-topic :) (sorry everyone feel free to ignore this) I have
just watched the clip and yet she has a point I think It is totally
dependent on the amount of logic your project has and also the the
frameworks you're using. For large projects and large teams, worrying about
CSS, HTML, SQL and other low level conceptions on a daily basis can be quite
a nuisance when you have forms and windows layouts with dozens of fields
that need validation, event handling and persistence. I use cayenne for most
of my projects and I dont feel cheated or disconnected from the low levels
of my application at all, but being able to worry with more high-level
concepts on a daily basis it is much more efficient, at least for me.

Comparing Bakers with Programmers is also somewhat problematic because some
of the best qualities of programmers are not quite good for bakers. For
example lazyness. A good programmer is lazy. We dont want to repeat code all
the time, we dont like to write a lot of code and so we try to find ways to
encapsulate parts of our applications and also find tools that help us do
more doing less (nice concept :)).

At the clip, in my opinion she used the worst example possible, hibernate.
When I was analyzing ORMs, as most people, I tried to find those pages with
titles like "The Top Ten Things that do this" for ORMs and of course
Hibernate was the first on most lists. But when I tried the learn it or even
use it on a small example I was amazed the amount of documentation and work
you have to do prior to having something working (my lazy side kicked in -
any framework that take me more than a day to do something reasonable is
kinda on the bottom of my list...). And also the amount of programmers
complaining about hibernate was quite large.

During that time I came across Cayenne and thank god I found it! It took me
no time to use it, the documentation was proper (could be a more organized
but it wasn't a showstopper) and the DataContext was the thing that made
decide for it. I know I am preaching on the same 'church' but even so, for
me, it is the first feature that smashes hibernate to the ground. Come on,
calling .save() for each object and being worried about in what order you do
it is just too much work (I know this is JPA fault but even so...).

Coming back to the clip, I think tools like Cayenne are those mixes that
chefs use, like I saw so many times on cooking shows where a chef uses
this ingredient and says : "You can get this also fresh but this one is
cheaper, you can get it faster on the supermarket and tastes as good as the
fresh product". So no shame on taking some shortcuts as long as the final
product was cheaper, faster to make and the end user (or eater) is satisfied
with it.

The real message here should be: chose what you think will help you more and
not what everyone is using it just because (some top manager told you to use
it because all CV's ask for it).

Regards and sorry again for the off-topic

On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 11:04 AM, Hugi Thordarson <> wrote:

> Hey, Cayenne Developers! Stop destroying our joy of programming!
> - hugi
> PS: Sorry for the off topic post, couldn't resist…

Bruno René Santos | | Gestor de Projectos | Analista |
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