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From Christian Grobmeier <>
Subject Re: Cayenne marketing (was: Fwd: Second article appeared today)
Date Tue, 15 Nov 2011 16:06:46 GMT
Just out of curiosity (not reading private) - has a cayenne twitter
account been opened? is it discussed in private? Should/can I help
with it?

On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 2:18 PM, Christian Grobmeier <> wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 1:42 PM, Andrus Adamchik <> wrote:
>> Besides the fact that the attention to Cayenne was attracted by the "favorable mention
in online articles" kind of proves the point that marketing matters. If the project doesn't
attempt to place itself on anyone's radar, there will be no online articles.
>> And of course nobody denies the need for improvement of the code and docs, but that
sort of goes without saying. While marketing requires us to pause and think of the strategy.
> +1
> Actually reading from Cayenne on Twitter from time to time gives the
> impression this project is active. Same is true for regular blogposts.
> In addition, if I seen 10 posts on Cayenne and have no clue, I might
> get interested and read only one of them. Then I might decide to look
> at more, if I like it.
> Many blogposts also show that there is already community interest.
> This is crucial for many people, for example like me. I was kind of
> nervous before I decided to prefer Cayenne over Hibernate in my
> project, just because it was much more silent than Hibernate. Now I
> know better and I am glad, but not everybody has the chance to take
> such a "risk" (or want).
> I think good Javadocs are one side of a coin, a vibrant community is
> the other side. Both go hand in hand.
> Btw Jo - if I remember right, you have made a similar choice like I
> did in the past. Are you willing to share your experience? I might
> think this will make up a good blog post. If you don't run a blog, we
> can arrange some kind of an interview in my blog.
> Cheers
> Christian
>> Andrus
>> On Nov 8, 2011, at 1:03 AM, Aristedes Maniatis wrote:
>>> On Mon Nov  7 23:01:18 2011, Durchholz, Joachim wrote:
>>>> Twitter and blogging won't help those who already use it, and those who don't
use it yet won't want to spend their time reading regular updates. That said, it might be
helpful for those who consider using it but haven't found the time or resolve to actually
do it; but these will be more interested in what newbie Cayenne users have to say than in
what the developers think is the newest and greatest.
>>>> What's important is to lower the entry barrier.
>>>> E.g. make Modeler intuitive to use and cover all aspects that could be reasonably
modelled. (My experience, as just one data point: I toyed with it for half an afternoon and
found it a bit hard to get a handle on it and on what features it actually supports. Another
detail might be that the tool should announce itself with a phrase that allows people to decide
what they can and can't expect it to do; for example, that it is not supposed to model everything
that their database can, but everything that... well, no idea what exactly its area of expertise
should be.)
>>>> The documentation is actually great as an overview. It touches everything
one would ask when trying to determine what Cayenne can and cannot do. It is frugal with details
>>>> My advice would be to get Cayenne ahead. That's going to gain more followers
than trying to do anything marketing-wise - the marketing that led to my current interest
in Cayenne wasn't twitter feeds or blog posts, it was favorable mention in online articles.
>>>> What's important is what Cayenne can and what it cannot (or will not) do.
Example projects would be nice; have a web service and a J2SE application (one of each kind).
Have the example projects touch every complication once: long-running transactions, distributed
commits, proxy objects, optimistic update conflicts. In the famous words of Linus Torvalds:
"Words are cheap. Show me the code." (I have been bitten too many times by believing some
project's overhyped self description. I bet a lot of developers out there share the experience,
particularly those who are in a position to advocate an architectural switch. Nothing that
the developers could write will help overcome that scepticism; only working code will, and
it won't convince, at best it will lower the barrier. I, for an example, still haven't committed
to Cayenne; the kinds of problems that show up in the mailing list are currently making me
a bit more sceptical. I'm simply not prepared to spend several person-months
>>> on an experiment that may fail, my time budget does not allow this (unfortunately,
I'd love to try Cayenne out).)
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Jo
>>> Hi Jo
>>> Thanks for your comments. I am not quite sure what to make of them all, but perhaps
a point of reference which would help us understand: what are you comparing Cayenne to? Hibernate?
Something else? No ORM at all?
>>> I ask, because promoting Cayenne seems to fall into two categories: 1. Cayenne
is a more suitable tool for the particular task than other ORMs, 2. You'll want to this this
ORM thing instead of putting SQL into your code.
>>> They are quite different audiences for any messages we are trying to get out.
>>> Ari
>>> --
>>> -------------------------->
>>> Aristedes Maniatis
>>> GPG fingerprint CBFB 84B4 738D 4E87 5E5C  5EFA EF6A 7D2E 3E49 102A
> --


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