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From Demetrios Kyriakis <>
Subject Re: DataViews - Proposal - move to sourceforge!
Date Sun, 04 Nov 2007 12:33:42 GMT

Andrus Adamchik wrote:
> Actually we had a similar discussion some time ago, and also related  
> to DataViews. Forking and relicensing is an easy option:
> Whoever wants to work on a fork, I suggest you contact Adrian  
> Wiesmann (who is likely reading this list). I think he already did a  
> fork and placed it on SourceForge (?)
Well, as I mentioned, I'm not interested in "forking" but "moving" :).
I saw Adrian's work - it's not a standalone SF project, but part of some
other one, and as you
say - it's a *fork* :).

Andrus Adamchik wrote:
> I disagree that Apache license as such is unfriendly to GUI projects  
> (at least I haven't heard any reasonable argument to back that idea),  
> but the fact that most existing libraries converged around (L)GPL  
> could definitely play its role as a high barrier to entry. Although  
> there are notable exceptions - JGoodies uses BSD license.
Yes, sure - the exception that confirms the rule :).
The thumb rule I heard on many JUGs(and forums) is that "if you want a tool
or GUI use LGLP, if you want
a general library than use BSD or Apache". I got no explanation why is that
so (beyond "lawyers found this as the best combination"), but it seems that
developers apply it :).

Andrus Adamchik wrote:
> Finally I have no idea why people are so afraid to contribute to  
> Apache. There are no barriers, except for the ones that any  
> established project would have, namely that the people involved in  
> the project value their reputation built over the years, and  
> therefore require new contributors to go through the karma building  
> process, before giving them write access. I think that's very  
> reasonable.
Well I can give you a few reasons, but I suppose "true Apache believers"
will dismiss them and will consider "flame" :). This is not my intention,
but to give you another point of view - that of *your users*.

#1 - most people do open source work in their free time, and this for fun
and only as long as it makes fun.
(Well there might be exceptions - maybe on there are more
"employees" doing open source work in their "work time" than somewhere
#2 - submitting patches to an issue tracking system is no fun.
There's no direct feedback, there's no "instant gratification", and for sure
it does not compare with a simply making a quick check in and getting
feedback for your changes.
#2.1 - in many Apache projects, issues (with patches but with simple code
snippets too) take months to get into the code - if they ever get. A simple
browse of the Apache JIRA shows this state: there are even a few projects
where this takes years :) - Velocity, JAMES, Commons VFS - just to mention a
few (and your users know them even if they don't express their frustration
with that state).
#3 - getting commit rights is waaaay too complicated on - on
sourceforge it takes only one click :). If it's not OK what that developer
does, the rights can be revoked anytime, and the code rollbacked - nobody
gets upset and nobody is loosing time - the time frame where the contributor
is in "fun state" is kept :).
#4 - on SF unlike most people spend no time on licensing
discussions (nor really do they care) or voting with the most strange voting
ever invented: "veto" for everybody :) :) :). (on Apache JAMES this veto
this leads to constant blocking in the last 3 years, and on other projects
to always choose the "least common denominator", or developers being
Ueber-cautious - this simply kills creativity, and 100% kills fun :) ).

I hope, you don't take this as a flame but as an insight in the perspective
of your users trying to help.

Thank you,

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