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From Jeffrey Jirsa <jji...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Moderation
Date Sun, 06 Nov 2016 15:50:10 GMT
PMC member is a committer by default (in the past, we’ve had difficulty
electing a member to the PMC without giving them commit access, so
electing a member to the PMC without granting them commit access is at the
very least nontrivial)

The process is the same for all top level projects - the PMC itself
nominates and elects new members. The current PMC is listed here:
https://projects.apache.org/committee.html?cassandra , if you’re curious
about who can nominate at this time.

Because it’s driven by nominations at the PMC level, the process is the
same, but the actual qualities that lead to a nomination likely vary
project to project. Ed mentioned that in Hive, they’ve had members on the
PMC that were primarily contributors to docs or had a single meaningful
change to the build system. That’s a project-by-project decision, but
generally, a diverse PMC helps ensure diversity in the community and helps
drive outside contributions, so diversity is encouraged.

Looking at the roster, most of the current PMC members were
nominated/elected because they’re active committers with deep internal
knowledge and a history of contributing, some are nominated/elected
because they’re active within the ASF and help us guide the project (I
like to imagine I was nominated in part due to past contributions, but
also my familiarity with the greater non-Datastax Cassandra community).



On 11/6/16, 9:22 AM, "Jonathan Haddad" <jon@jonhaddad.com> wrote:

>I took a look at https://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html, and it doesn't seem
>to give any guidelines on who should be on the PMC.  My assumption has
>always been the most active committers become PMC members, but it sounds
>like that's not the case on other projects.  Is the process to be added to
>the PMC supposed to be the same everywhere, or is it up to the project?
>Can you be on the PMC but not have commit access?
>
>On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 5:04 AM Chris Mattmann <mattmann@apache.org> wrote:
>
>> Sorry one typo below:
>>
>> Where I said:
>>
>> “The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was
>>me
>> saying – ideally – I would hope that
>> the Apache Cassandra MVP people promote the concept of their community
>> leaders becoming “ASF members”,
>> and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the
>> responsibilities of the PMC to move towards ensuring
>> its community understands the Apache Way.”
>>
>> I meant to say:
>>
>> “The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was
>>me
>> saying – ideally – I would hope that
>> the Apache Cassandra *PMC* people promote the concept of their community
>> leaders becoming “ASF members”,
>> and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the
>> responsibilities of the PMC to move towards ensuring
>> its community understands the Apache Way.”
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Chris
>>
>>
>> On 11/6/16, 6:53 AM, "Chris Mattmann" <mattmann@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>     For the record, your breakdown of the email trying to decipher what
>>I
>> meant is not
>>     correct. It’s not your fault, but email doesn’t convey tone, nor do
>> you know what I am
>>     thinking or what I was trying to say. In fact, I was actually saying
>> the PMC wasn’t doing its job,
>>     because (as I stated to you months ago), you (and many other
>>community
>> members of
>>     Cassandra) *should* have a binding vote. It wasn’t discrediting to
>>you
>> to point out that
>>     you don’t have the PMC or committer credentials; it was an example
>> trying to point out
>>     that you *should* have them. And that you clearly care about the
>> project as I believe you
>>     have developed a book on the subject of Apache Cassandra a while
>>back
>> IIRC which in Tika,
>>     Nutch, OODT, and a number of other projects would have earned you
>>the
>> ability to have a
>>     direct say in those Apache projects. And a lot of others.
>>
>>     It’s these systematic fracturing of the community under the guise
>>of a
>> single vendor who
>>     has stated that they care about Cassandra (note the omission of
>> Apache), but by demonstration
>>     has shown they either don’t understand, or don’t care about the
>>Apache
>> part of the equation.
>>     That’s what caused me to become frustrated when the following
>>sequence
>> of events
>>     happened:
>>
>>     1. After the Board meeting Mark Thomas one of our Directors took
>>point
>> on engaging
>>     the Apache Cassandra PMC with some of the concerns brought up over
>>the
>> past 6
>>     months and the role I was filling there became a back seat for me.
>>     2. I saw over the past few days on a Twitter feed retweeted by an
>>ASF
>> member that
>>     Kelly Sommers (whom I have never met in person and do not know
>> previously) was asking
>>     questions and stating negative things about the ASF that I believed
>> could be much better
>>     understood by bringing them here to the ASF mailing lists for Apache
>> Cassandra. I suggested
>>     on Twitter that she bring her concerns to the Apache lists and told
>> her which email address
>>     to send it to. Some of the same people that eventually came onto the
>> thread were people
>>     who were communicating with her on Twitter – this was disappointing
>>as
>> they could have
>>     done the same thing, and suggested Kelly come to the lists, Apache
>> Cassandra PMC or not.
>>     3. After 12 hours I checked back with Kelly and the Twitter dialogue
>> had continued with several
>>     ASF members and even some Board members getting involved. Again, I
>> asked Kelly why talk
>>     there, and why not just talk to the email list which is the
>>canonical
>> home for Apache Cassandra?
>>     She told me she sent the mail the prior night.
>>     4. So of course I checked (after having already guessed it was stuck
>> in moderation) and yes it
>>     was. What ensued was both frustration by my part and also email
>> conversation that was heated
>>     on both sides. I felt swiped on by a few emails where I had good
>> intentions but I felt we were
>>     wasting time debating whether we *should* moderate something
>>through –
>> which to me was
>>     a clear answer (yes). Where I failed there was to recognize that the
>> real answer was that the Apache
>>     Cassandra PMC did not have enough moderators and the people I was
>> mostly going back and forth
>>     with were not the moderators of the mailing lists.
>>     5. One positive thing that came from #4 was that at least there are
>> more moderators now. I’m not sure
>>     the reason for the lack of geographically diverse moderators, but
>>it’s
>> definitely something the PMC should
>>     check from time to time. Not pointing fingers, simply identifying
>> responsibility.
>>
>>     In my emails I used the word “shi*t” and “f’ing”. I didn’t direct
>> either of these words at anyone in particular.
>>     I used them as color in expressing my frustration. It happens from
>> time to time. Sorry.
>>
>>     The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it
>>was
>> me saying – ideally – I would hope that
>>     the Apache Cassandra MVP people promote the concept of their
>>community
>> leaders becoming “ASF members”,
>>     and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the
>> responsibilities of the PMC to move towards ensuring
>>     its community understands the Apache Way.
>>
>>     Russell and I have never met in person so he does not really know me
>> and nor I him. So he doesn’t know some of
>>     these nuances that people would normally know having met each other
>>in
>> mediums besides email or electronically.
>>     Many of you do not know me either. I will conclude with saying that
>>I
>> realize many of the people here for Apache
>>     Cassandra have the best intentions for the project at heart. Please
>> realize I do too. I care about the ASF and projects
>>     and it leads me to send TL;DR emails and/or to use passion in my
>> words. That can lead to frustration and to other
>>     emotions.
>>
>>     Thanks for listening.
>>
>>     Cheers,
>>     Chris
>>
>>
>>
>>     On 11/5/16, 3:16 PM, "Russell Bradberry" <rbradberry@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>         For the record, I never said anyone was attempting to make me
>> “look bad”.  I simply stated that his method of argument was to
>>discredit
>> me.  Below I will break down his response, as I see it, and as others
>>who
>> have messaged me off list see it as well:
>>
>>         “… You see I’ve been around since 2004 and elected by the
>> membership to the Board for the last three years based on merit …”
>>
>>         Here he is showing his superiority by way of tenure, or merit.
>>
>>         “You see I actually understand…”
>>
>>         The use of the term “actually” in this sense is to provide an
>> attack against me in an effort to prove that I do not understand.
>>
>>         “…unfortunately you do not have a voice …”
>>
>>         Again, this is a blatant attempt to discredit me and provide
>>proof
>> that my word is of no worth because I am not on the PMC, nor a
>>committer.
>>
>>         “You won’t have a vote in the next Apache Board election.”
>>
>>         Again
>>
>>         “You won’t have a vote in the next Members election.”
>>
>>         Again
>>
>>         “why haven’t you been elected to have a binding voice within the
>> project? Please ask yourself that”
>>
>>         This is either an attempt to discredit me, in that I have not
>>done
>> enough to be elected, or an attempt to state the PMC hasn’t been doing
>> their job in recognizing my efforts.
>>
>>         “please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP” compared to a
>> member of the ASF which is home to the project””
>>
>>         This is not only insinuating that MVP is less than being a
>>member
>> of the ASF, and because I was given the MVP title, that somehow I am
>>less
>> than as well. (for the record, I have not asked for the MVP title, it
>>was
>> awarded, and I do not think that it should have any effect on the
>>project
>> from an Apache standpoint. Quite simply put, it is just another bullet
>> point on a resume)
>>
>>         “I’ve been privy and voted on granting membership to within the
>> foundation since 2011”
>>
>>         More attempts to discredit me by showing tenure.
>>
>>         Literally, the first portion of the response was a campaign to
>> discredit me in order to demonstrate his merit.  The rest of the email
>>goes
>> to defend a point that I did not make.
>>
>>         Again, I will assert that the complaints the board has are
>>valid.
>> Datastax may have overstepped bounds and, as a result, put the project
>>and
>> ASF at risk.  I am not an authority on the subject and have not been
>>privy
>> to the private messages between the board, PMC, and Datastax.  What I
>>will
>> say, is that the tone, vitriol, ad-hominem responses and other
>> unprofessional conduct has caused a rift in this community.  Most of
>>this
>> is coming directly from the board, specifically Chris.  Furthermore, as
>> Aleksey has pointed out, this occurs in the private lists as well.
>>This is
>> a form of toxic-leadership and is proven to not only be ineffective, but
>> also be directly harmful.  These issues can, and should, be resolved
>> amicably.
>>
>>         Professionalism and Respect, if aren’t, should be of the core
>> tenets of any foundation, especially one of the caliber of Apache.
>>
>>
>>
>>         On 11/5/16, 9:38 AM, "Mark Struberg" <struberg@yahoo.de.INVALID>
>> wrote:
>>
>>             Russel, I don't read that out of Chris' answer.
>>             He just tried to show how community development might look
>> like if done a bit more openly.
>>
>>             Do you mind going back to Chris' original reply and re-read
>>it
>> again?
>>             I've not interpreted it as anyone trying to make you look
>>bad.
>> Au contraire!
>>
>>
>>             txs and LieGrue,
>>             strub
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>             > On Saturday, 5 November 2016, 13:56, Russell Bradberry <
>> rbradberry@gmail.com> wrote:
>>             > > It seems that your tactic of argument is to discredit me
>> at every level in order
>>             > to show your superiority of sorts.  Let me set this
>> straight, I am not
>>             > attempting to say that I am an authority on ASF or that I
>> know how things should
>>             > be run.  I also was not attempting to vilify you in front
>>of
>> the board or vilify
>>             > you in any way.  My complaint is that your rhetoric is
>> unprofessional; and as a
>>             > representative of the board the language you use is,
>> plainly, casting a bad
>>             > light on the ASF.
>>             >
>>             > I understand all of your concerns and was not attempting
>>to
>> minimize them in any
>>             > way; they are legitimate concerns.  The way you are
>>handling
>> them is what I am
>>             > concerned with and the tone you take is what I believe is
>> helping divide the
>>             > community.  Being the “villain” as you say is what is the
>> problem.  If you cast
>>             > yourself as the villain as a representative of the
>> foundation you are then
>>             > making the foundation look bad.
>>             >
>>             > Lastly, I may not have a vote, but I do have a voice.
>> Everyone in the community
>>             > does and can be heard, if not then it isn’t much of a
>> community at all. I
>>             > wouldn’t have you voted off the board nor do I want you to
>> be voted off the
>>             > board, I have not enough information to make a sound
>> decision in that regard.
>>             >
>>             > All I ask if for some common professionalism and courtesy,
>> nothing more.
>>             >
>>             >
>>             >
>>             >
>>             > On 11/4/16, 4:46 PM, "Chris Mattmann"
>><mattmann@apache.org>
>>             > wrote:
>>             >
>>             >     Hi Russ,
>>             >
>>             >     Sorry that you feel that way. I’m happy to be the
>> villain when it comes to
>>             > protecting
>>             >     those same ideals you cite regarding Apache in your
>> below thread. You see
>>             > I’ve been
>>             >     around since 2004 and elected by the membership to the
>> Board for the last
>>             > three years
>>             >     based on merit, and contributions towards those ideals
>> over a decade of the
>>             > ASF.
>>             >     I’ve been around longer than Apache Cassandra and this
>> community and fully
>>             > intend
>>             >     for that to continue. My job is not to only care about
>> Cassandra. It’s to
>>             > ensure that the
>>             >     ASF is a vendor neutral ground for ALL of its
>>projects.
>> You see I actually
>>             > understand and
>>             >     have read what’s required of me to serve the
>>membership
>> of the ASF and its
>>             > communities.
>>             >     I take this VERY seriously. Perhaps more than you
>>know.
>>             >
>>             >     You see the other problem with your complaint about
>>me –
>> is that
>>             > unfortunately you
>>             >     do not have a voice to act on that complaint. You
>>won’t
>> have a vote in the
>>             > next Apache
>>             >     Board election. You won’t have a vote in the next
>> Members election. And
>>             > *that* is
>>             >     the rub. I wouldn’t even care if you did or not and
>>you
>> voted against me on
>>             > the ballot.
>>             >     If the Apache Cassandra PMC or community cared enough
>> about you or your
>>             > contributions
>>             >     to the project, you would have been made a committer,
>>or
>> PMC member, long
>>             > ago, and
>>             >     heck you would have even had a chance to become an ASF
>> member where you
>>             > could do
>>             >     more than simply voice your displeasure with my
>>actions,
>> you would be able
>>             > to vote with
>>             >     your feet against my tyranny of trying to make this
>> project’s management
>>             > committee
>>             >     understand their responsibilities for the ASF. I don’t
>> even consider your
>>             > requests to have
>>             >     me vilified in front of the Board something that would
>> disqualify you for
>>             > membership in
>>             >     the PMC or committee. If you have been making
>> contributions, even discussion
>>             > threads,
>>             >     answering questions, etc., to the point of your prior
>> emails including this
>>             > one – why haven’t
>>             >     you been elected to have a binding voice within the
>> project? Please ask
>>             > yourself that.
>>             >
>>             >     In fact, please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra
>>MVP”
>> compared to a
>>             > member of the
>>             >     ASF which is home to the project? Also please go look
>>at
>> all the people I’ve
>>             > been privy and
>>             >     voted on granting membership to within the foundation
>> since 2011, go look at
>>             > some of the
>>             >     functioning and healthy projects that don’t have a
>> problem with vendor
>>             > neutrality at the
>>             >     ASF, and *then* come and talk to me about how my
>> professional and character
>>             > isn’t such
>>             >     to stand on the board of the ASF. Again, I’ll wait.
>>             >
>>             >     If it’s a hostile request to ask that a potentially
>> inflammatory Twitter
>>             > discussion that I attempted
>>             >     to bring about to the *source of the project’s
>> discussion here at the ASF*
>>             > and for a mail summarizing
>>             >     that Twitter discussion to be moderated through within
>> 12 hours, and
>>             >     for the PMC of an Apache project to understand its
>> commitments regarding
>>             > having
>>             >     geographically diverse moderators for their Apache
>> lists; and if it’s a
>>             > hostile request to
>>             >     ask that all members of the community including those
>> non committers and/or
>>             > PMC
>>             >     that take to Twitter to voice their concerns when they
>> are not sure of even
>>             > where the
>>             >     canonical discussion for the project is have a voice
>> here on the canonical
>>             > lists for the project
>>             >     then there is something fundamentally wrong with the
>> community. I will
>>             > assert again based
>>             >     on my reading of the facts including archives, code,
>> discussions here and
>>             > outside of the ASF, abuse
>>             >     of trademarks, vendor non-neutrality, tea leaves and
>>the
>> collective WHOLE of
>>             > those things that my initial
>>             >     request to bring the conversation on list -  that was
>> met with the usual
>>             > random drive by vitriol and my follow
>>             >     up asking how in the bleeping world there were at
>>least
>> 3 emails questioning
>>             > whether or not an email
>>             >     should be moderated though - was warranted.
>>             >
>>             >     I state this as someone who has seen Apache projects
>> come and go and will
>>             >     continue to see that, even ones at the same level of
>> interest as Cassandra
>>             > (and much
>>             >     much more too as well). If it’s hostile for a Board
>> member to drive the
>>             > discussions to
>>             >     the mailing list instead of outside sources, then my
>> apologies for my
>>             > hostility. You will
>>             >     continue to get that apology as I continue to do my
>>job
>> and what I signed up
>>             > to do as an
>>             >     ASF board member in terms of maintaining that vendor
>> neutrality,
>>             > irrespective of whether
>>             >     or not people don’t like my directness, frankness, and
>> discussion.
>>             >
>>             >     Chris
>>             >
>>             >     On 11/4/16, 1:09 PM, "Russell Bradberry"
>>             > <rbradberry@gmail.com> wrote:
>>             >
>>             >            - ... we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate
>>it
>> through. Wow.
>>             > Great
>>             >            job.
>>             >            - Do you think it's healthy to send emails
>>trying
>> to talk shit
>>             > instead
>>             >            of ...
>>             >            - ... project? Or is Twitter the official list
>> now? Go ahead,
>>             > I'll wait.
>>             >
>>             >
>>             >         Given your behavior and rhetoric on this thread, I
>> believe you lack the
>>             >         professionalism and character to be a board member
>> of anything, let
>>             > alone
>>             >         representing the Apache Software Foundation and
>>it's
>> ideals.
>>             > I've CC'd the
>>             >         rest of the Apache board because I would like to
>> formally complain about
>>             >         your divisive rhetoric and overall unprofessional
>> conduct within this
>>             >         mailing list.
>>             >
>>             >         This list, and community, are made up of
>>individuals
>> and volunteers. I
>>             >         believe, attacking them, even though you believe
>>you
>> may have been
>>             >         attacked, detracts from the conversation and
>> elevates tension in an
>>             > already
>>             >         tense community.  I encourage others to chime in
>>if
>> I am misreading
>>             > here. I
>>             >         personally feel that someone acting in a
>>leadership
>> capacity, such as a
>>             >         board member, should be held to a higher standard
>>of
>> professionalism and
>>             >         conduct when doing business; whether it is with
>> their board member hat
>>             > on
>>             >         or not.  I would hate for it to be assumed that
>>the
>> entire Apache board
>>             >         encourages, promotes, or even acts in this manner.
>>             >
>>             >         -Russ
>>             >
>>             >
>>             >
>>             >         On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 1:18 PM Mattmann, Chris A
>> (3010) <
>>             >         chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>>             >
>>             >         > Mark Thomas got it done ✅
>>             >         >
>>             >         > Sent from my iPhone
>>             >         >
>>             >         > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Jason Brown
>>             > <jasedbrown@gmail.com> wrote:
>>             >         > >
>>             >         > > s/sis/is
>>             >         > >
>>             >         > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Jason Brown
>>             > <jasedbrown@gmail.com>
>>             >         > wrote:
>>             >         > >>
>>             >         > >> Chris,
>>             >         > >>
>>             >         > >> Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis
>>the
>> ticket I
>>             > filed:
>>             >         > >>
>> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858.
>>             >         > >>
>>             >         > >> Thanks,
>>             >         > >>
>>             >         > >> -Jason
>>             >         > >>
>>             >         > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris
>>Mattmann
>>             > <mattmann@apache.org>
>>             >         > >> wrote:
>>             >         > >>
>>             >         > >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
>>             >         > >>>
>>             >         > >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you
>>would
>> like to
>>             > be added. Did
>>             >         > you
>>             >         > >>> file the ticket - if so point me to it.
If
>>you
>>             > haven't yet, no worries
>>             >         > I
>>             >         > >>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
>>             >         > >>>
>>             >         > >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason
Brown
>>             > <jasedbrown@gmail.com>
>>             >         > wrote:
>>             >         > >>>> Gary,
>>             >         > >>>>
>>             >         > >>>> I've just started looking into the
>>moderator
>>             > component due to this
>>             >         > >>> thread;
>>             >         > >>>> I admit I did not know about it before
(my
>> fault).
>>             > Yes, I would like
>>             >         > to
>>             >         > >>> be
>>             >         > >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file
an INFRA
>> ticket
>>             > (as per
>>             >         > >>>>
>>             >
>> https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators),
>>             >         > >>> which
>>             >         > >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
>>             >         > >>>>
>>             >         > >>>> -Jason
>>             >         > >>>>
>>             >         > >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary
>>Dusbabek
>>             > <gdusbabek@gmail.com>
>>             >         > >>> wrote:
>>             >         > >>>>
>>             >         > >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm
the
>>             > only one with moderator privs. Any
>>             >         > >>> other
>>             >         > >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
>>             >         > >>>>>
>>             >         > >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with
and
>>             > I've been traveling this week.
>>             >         > >>>>>
>>             >         > >>>>> Gary.
>>             >         > >>>>>
>>             >         > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM,
Chris
>> Mattmann
>>             > <mattmann@apache.org>
>>             >         > >>>>> wrote:
>>             >         > >>>>>
>>             >         > >>>>>> Hi Folks,
>>             >         > >>>>>>
>>             >         > >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message
to
>>             > dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
>>             >         > >>> figure
>>             >         > >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
>>             >         > >>>>>>
>>             >         > >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
>>             >         > >>>>>>
>>             >         > >>>>>> Cheers,
>>             >         > >>>>>> Chris
>>             >         > >>>>>>
>>             >         > >>>>>>
>>             >         > >>>>>
>>             >         > >>>>
>>             >         > >>>
>>             >         > >>
>>             >         > >>
>>             >         >
>>             >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>



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