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From paul cannon <pcan...@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Moderation
Date Sun, 06 Nov 2016 01:04:03 GMT
I'm not a stakeholder here- I don't know Russell, I don't work for
Datastax, and I'm not a member of the ASF.

For what little it's probably worth since I haven't "been elected to have a
binding voice within the project", Russell's is exactly how I read the
message from Chris Mattmann. Whether or not it was intended to be so
aggressive and dismissive and patronizing, I almost can't even believe
something that *might* be taken this way is tolerated in a board member's
*public* communications.

In the end, I *can* believe it, though, as it reinforces my perception of
the Foundation in general. :(

p


On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 5:16 PM, Russell Bradberry <rbradberry@gmail.com>
wrote:

> For the record, I never said anyone was attempting to make me “look bad”.
> I simply stated that his method of argument was to discredit me.  Below I
> will break down his response, as I see it, and as others who have messaged
> me off list see it as well:
>
> “… You see I’ve been around since 2004 and elected by the membership to
> the Board for the last three years based on merit …”
>
> Here he is showing his superiority by way of tenure, or merit.
>
> “You see I actually understand…”
>
> The use of the term “actually” in this sense is to provide an attack
> against me in an effort to prove that I do not understand.
>
> “…unfortunately you do not have a voice …”
>
> Again, this is a blatant attempt to discredit me and provide proof that my
> word is of no worth because I am not on the PMC, nor a committer.
>
> “You won’t have a vote in the next Apache Board election.”
>
> Again
>
> “You won’t have a vote in the next Members election.”
>
> Again
>
> “why haven’t you been elected to have a binding voice within the project?
> Please ask yourself that”
>
> This is either an attempt to discredit me, in that I have not done enough
> to be elected, or an attempt to state the PMC hasn’t been doing their job
> in recognizing my efforts.
>
> “please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP” compared to a member of
> the ASF which is home to the project””
>
> This is not only insinuating that MVP is less than being a member of the
> ASF, and because I was given the MVP title, that somehow I am less than as
> well. (for the record, I have not asked for the MVP title, it was awarded,
> and I do not think that it should have any effect on the project from an
> Apache standpoint. Quite simply put, it is just another bullet point on a
> resume)
>
> “I’ve been privy and voted on granting membership to within the foundation
> since 2011”
>
> More attempts to discredit me by showing tenure.
>
> Literally, the first portion of the response was a campaign to discredit
> me in order to demonstrate his merit.  The rest of the email goes to defend
> a point that I did not make.
>
> Again, I will assert that the complaints the board has are valid.
> Datastax may have overstepped bounds and, as a result, put the project and
> ASF at risk.  I am not an authority on the subject and have not been privy
> to the private messages between the board, PMC, and Datastax.  What I will
> say, is that the tone, vitriol, ad-hominem responses and other
> unprofessional conduct has caused a rift in this community.  Most of this
> is coming directly from the board, specifically Chris.  Furthermore, as
> Aleksey has pointed out, this occurs in the private lists as well.  This is
> a form of toxic-leadership and is proven to not only be ineffective, but
> also be directly harmful.  These issues can, and should, be resolved
> amicably.
>
> Professionalism and Respect, if aren’t, should be of the core tenets of
> any foundation, especially one of the caliber of Apache.
>
>
>
> On 11/5/16, 9:38 AM, "Mark Struberg" <struberg@yahoo.de.INVALID> wrote:
>
>     Russel, I don't read that out of Chris' answer.
>     He just tried to show how community development might look like if
> done a bit more openly.
>
>     Do you mind going back to Chris' original reply and re-read it again?
>     I've not interpreted it as anyone trying to make you look bad. Au
> contraire!
>
>
>     txs and LieGrue,
>     strub
>
>
>
>
>
>     > On Saturday, 5 November 2016, 13:56, Russell Bradberry <
> rbradberry@gmail.com> wrote:
>     > > It seems that your tactic of argument is to discredit me at every
> level in order
>     > to show your superiority of sorts.  Let me set this straight, I am
> not
>     > attempting to say that I am an authority on ASF or that I know how
> things should
>     > be run.  I also was not attempting to vilify you in front of the
> board or vilify
>     > you in any way.  My complaint is that your rhetoric is
> unprofessional; and as a
>     > representative of the board the language you use is, plainly,
> casting a bad
>     > light on the ASF.
>     >
>     > I understand all of your concerns and was not attempting to minimize
> them in any
>     > way; they are legitimate concerns.  The way you are handling them is
> what I am
>     > concerned with and the tone you take is what I believe is helping
> divide the
>     > community.  Being the “villain” as you say is what is the problem.
> If you cast
>     > yourself as the villain as a representative of the foundation you
> are then
>     > making the foundation look bad.
>     >
>     > Lastly, I may not have a vote, but I do have a voice.  Everyone in
> the community
>     > does and can be heard, if not then it isn’t much of a community at
> all. I
>     > wouldn’t have you voted off the board nor do I want you to be voted
> off the
>     > board, I have not enough information to make a sound decision in
> that regard.
>     >
>     > All I ask if for some common professionalism and courtesy, nothing
> more.
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > On 11/4/16, 4:46 PM, "Chris Mattmann" <mattmann@apache.org>
>     > wrote:
>     >
>     >     Hi Russ,
>     >
>     >     Sorry that you feel that way. I’m happy to be the villain when
> it comes to
>     > protecting
>     >     those same ideals you cite regarding Apache in your below
> thread. You see
>     > I’ve been
>     >     around since 2004 and elected by the membership to the Board for
> the last
>     > three years
>     >     based on merit, and contributions towards those ideals over a
> decade of the
>     > ASF.
>     >     I’ve been around longer than Apache Cassandra and this community
> and fully
>     > intend
>     >     for that to continue. My job is not to only care about
> Cassandra. It’s to
>     > ensure that the
>     >     ASF is a vendor neutral ground for ALL of its projects. You see
> I actually
>     > understand and
>     >     have read what’s required of me to serve the membership of the
> ASF and its
>     > communities.
>     >     I take this VERY seriously. Perhaps more than you know.
>     >
>     >     You see the other problem with your complaint about me – is that
>     > unfortunately you
>     >     do not have a voice to act on that complaint. You won’t have a
> vote in the
>     > next Apache
>     >     Board election. You won’t have a vote in the next Members
> election. And
>     > *that* is
>     >     the rub. I wouldn’t even care if you did or not and you voted
> against me on
>     > the ballot.
>     >     If the Apache Cassandra PMC or community cared enough about you
> or your
>     > contributions
>     >     to the project, you would have been made a committer, or PMC
> member, long
>     > ago, and
>     >     heck you would have even had a chance to become an ASF member
> where you
>     > could do
>     >     more than simply voice your displeasure with my actions, you
> would be able
>     > to vote with
>     >     your feet against my tyranny of trying to make this project’s
> management
>     > committee
>     >     understand their responsibilities for the ASF. I don’t even
> consider your
>     > requests to have
>     >     me vilified in front of the Board something that would
> disqualify you for
>     > membership in
>     >     the PMC or committee. If you have been making contributions,
> even discussion
>     > threads,
>     >     answering questions, etc., to the point of your prior emails
> including this
>     > one – why haven’t
>     >     you been elected to have a binding voice within the project?
> Please ask
>     > yourself that.
>     >
>     >     In fact, please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP”
> compared to a
>     > member of the
>     >     ASF which is home to the project? Also please go look at all the
> people I’ve
>     > been privy and
>     >     voted on granting membership to within the foundation since
> 2011, go look at
>     > some of the
>     >     functioning and healthy projects that don’t have a problem with
> vendor
>     > neutrality at the
>     >     ASF, and *then* come and talk to me about how my professional
> and character
>     > isn’t such
>     >     to stand on the board of the ASF. Again, I’ll wait.
>     >
>     >     If it’s a hostile request to ask that a potentially inflammatory
> Twitter
>     > discussion that I attempted
>     >     to bring about to the *source of the project’s discussion here
> at the ASF*
>     > and for a mail summarizing
>     >     that Twitter discussion to be moderated through within 12 hours,
> and
>     >     for the PMC of an Apache project to understand its commitments
> regarding
>     > having
>     >     geographically diverse moderators for their Apache lists; and if
> it’s a
>     > hostile request to
>     >     ask that all members of the community including those non
> committers and/or
>     > PMC
>     >     that take to Twitter to voice their concerns when they are not
> sure of even
>     > where the
>     >     canonical discussion for the project is have a voice here on the
> canonical
>     > lists for the project
>     >     then there is something fundamentally wrong with the community.
> I will
>     > assert again based
>     >     on my reading of the facts including archives, code, discussions
> here and
>     > outside of the ASF, abuse
>     >     of trademarks, vendor non-neutrality, tea leaves and the
> collective WHOLE of
>     > those things that my initial
>     >     request to bring the conversation on list -  that was met with
> the usual
>     > random drive by vitriol and my follow
>     >     up asking how in the bleeping world there were at least 3 emails
> questioning
>     > whether or not an email
>     >     should be moderated though - was warranted.
>     >
>     >     I state this as someone who has seen Apache projects come and go
> and will
>     >     continue to see that, even ones at the same level of interest as
> Cassandra
>     > (and much
>     >     much more too as well). If it’s hostile for a Board member to
> drive the
>     > discussions to
>     >     the mailing list instead of outside sources, then my apologies
> for my
>     > hostility. You will
>     >     continue to get that apology as I continue to do my job and what
> I signed up
>     > to do as an
>     >     ASF board member in terms of maintaining that vendor neutrality,
>     > irrespective of whether
>     >     or not people don’t like my directness, frankness, and
> discussion.
>     >
>     >     Chris
>     >
>     >     On 11/4/16, 1:09 PM, "Russell Bradberry"
>     > <rbradberry@gmail.com> wrote:
>     >
>     >            - ... we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it
> through. Wow.
>     > Great
>     >            job.
>     >            - Do you think it's healthy to send emails trying to talk
> shit
>     > instead
>     >            of ...
>     >            - ... project? Or is Twitter the official list now? Go
> ahead,
>     > I'll wait.
>     >
>     >
>     >         Given your behavior and rhetoric on this thread, I believe
> you lack the
>     >         professionalism and character to be a board member of
> anything, let
>     > alone
>     >         representing the Apache Software Foundation and it's ideals.
>     > I've CC'd the
>     >         rest of the Apache board because I would like to formally
> complain about
>     >         your divisive rhetoric and overall unprofessional conduct
> within this
>     >         mailing list.
>     >
>     >         This list, and community, are made up of individuals and
> volunteers. I
>     >         believe, attacking them, even though you believe you may
> have been
>     >         attacked, detracts from the conversation and elevates
> tension in an
>     > already
>     >         tense community.  I encourage others to chime in if I am
> misreading
>     > here. I
>     >         personally feel that someone acting in a leadership
> capacity, such as a
>     >         board member, should be held to a higher standard of
> professionalism and
>     >         conduct when doing business; whether it is with their board
> member hat
>     > on
>     >         or not.  I would hate for it to be assumed that the entire
> Apache board
>     >         encourages, promotes, or even acts in this manner.
>     >
>     >         -Russ
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >         On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 1:18 PM Mattmann, Chris A (3010) <
>     >         chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>     >
>     >         > Mark Thomas got it done ✅
>     >         >
>     >         > Sent from my iPhone
>     >         >
>     >         > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Jason Brown
>     > <jasedbrown@gmail.com> wrote:
>     >         > >
>     >         > > s/sis/is
>     >         > >
>     >         > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Jason Brown
>     > <jasedbrown@gmail.com>
>     >         > wrote:
>     >         > >>
>     >         > >> Chris,
>     >         > >>
>     >         > >> Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis the ticket
I
>     > filed:
>     >         > >> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858.
>     >         > >>
>     >         > >> Thanks,
>     >         > >>
>     >         > >> -Jason
>     >         > >>
>     >         > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann
>     > <mattmann@apache.org>
>     >         > >> wrote:
>     >         > >>
>     >         > >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
>     >         > >>>
>     >         > >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would like
to
>     > be added. Did
>     >         > you
>     >         > >>> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If you
>     > haven't yet, no worries
>     >         > I
>     >         > >>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
>     >         > >>>
>     >         > >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown
>     > <jasedbrown@gmail.com>
>     >         > wrote:
>     >         > >>>> Gary,
>     >         > >>>>
>     >         > >>>> I've just started looking into the moderator
>     > component due to this
>     >         > >>> thread;
>     >         > >>>> I admit I did not know about it before (my fault).
>     > Yes, I would like
>     >         > to
>     >         > >>> be
>     >         > >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA ticket
>     > (as per
>     >         > >>>>
>     > https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators),
>     >         > >>> which
>     >         > >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
>     >         > >>>>
>     >         > >>>> -Jason
>     >         > >>>>
>     >         > >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek
>     > <gdusbabek@gmail.com>
>     >         > >>> wrote:
>     >         > >>>>
>     >         > >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the
>     > only one with moderator privs. Any
>     >         > >>> other
>     >         > >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
>     >         > >>>>>
>     >         > >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with and
>     > I've been traveling this week.
>     >         > >>>>>
>     >         > >>>>> Gary.
>     >         > >>>>>
>     >         > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris Mattmann
>     > <mattmann@apache.org>
>     >         > >>>>> wrote:
>     >         > >>>>>
>     >         > >>>>>> Hi Folks,
>     >         > >>>>>>
>     >         > >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to
>     > dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
>     >         > >>> figure
>     >         > >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
>     >         > >>>>>>
>     >         > >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
>     >         > >>>>>>
>     >         > >>>>>> Cheers,
>     >         > >>>>>> Chris
>     >         > >>>>>>
>     >         > >>>>>>
>     >         > >>>>>
>     >         > >>>>
>     >         > >>>
>     >         > >>
>     >         > >>
>     >         >
>     >
>
>
>
>

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