cassandra-dev mailing list archives

Site index · List index
Message view « Date » · « Thread »
Top « Date » · « Thread »
From Jonathan Haddad <...@jonhaddad.com>
Subject Re: Moderation
Date Sun, 06 Nov 2016 16:22:07 GMT
I took a look at https://www.apache.org/dev/pmc.html, and it doesn't seem
to give any guidelines on who should be on the PMC.  My assumption has
always been the most active committers become PMC members, but it sounds
like that's not the case on other projects.  Is the process to be added to
the PMC supposed to be the same everywhere, or is it up to the project?
Can you be on the PMC but not have commit access?

On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 5:04 AM Chris Mattmann <mattmann@apache.org> wrote:

> Sorry one typo below:
>
> Where I said:
>
> “The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was me
> saying – ideally – I would hope that
> the Apache Cassandra MVP people promote the concept of their community
> leaders becoming “ASF members”,
> and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the
> responsibilities of the PMC to move towards ensuring
> its community understands the Apache Way.”
>
> I meant to say:
>
> “The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was me
> saying – ideally – I would hope that
> the Apache Cassandra *PMC* people promote the concept of their community
> leaders becoming “ASF members”,
> and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the
> responsibilities of the PMC to move towards ensuring
> its community understands the Apache Way.”
>
> Thanks.
>
> Cheers,
> Chris
>
>
> On 11/6/16, 6:53 AM, "Chris Mattmann" <mattmann@apache.org> wrote:
>
>     For the record, your breakdown of the email trying to decipher what I
> meant is not
>     correct. It’s not your fault, but email doesn’t convey tone, nor do
> you know what I am
>     thinking or what I was trying to say. In fact, I was actually saying
> the PMC wasn’t doing its job,
>     because (as I stated to you months ago), you (and many other community
> members of
>     Cassandra) *should* have a binding vote. It wasn’t discrediting to you
> to point out that
>     you don’t have the PMC or committer credentials; it was an example
> trying to point out
>     that you *should* have them. And that you clearly care about the
> project as I believe you
>     have developed a book on the subject of Apache Cassandra a while back
> IIRC which in Tika,
>     Nutch, OODT, and a number of other projects would have earned you the
> ability to have a
>     direct say in those Apache projects. And a lot of others.
>
>     It’s these systematic fracturing of the community under the guise of a
> single vendor who
>     has stated that they care about Cassandra (note the omission of
> Apache), but by demonstration
>     has shown they either don’t understand, or don’t care about the Apache
> part of the equation.
>     That’s what caused me to become frustrated when the following sequence
> of events
>     happened:
>
>     1. After the Board meeting Mark Thomas one of our Directors took point
> on engaging
>     the Apache Cassandra PMC with some of the concerns brought up over the
> past 6
>     months and the role I was filling there became a back seat for me.
>     2. I saw over the past few days on a Twitter feed retweeted by an ASF
> member that
>     Kelly Sommers (whom I have never met in person and do not know
> previously) was asking
>     questions and stating negative things about the ASF that I believed
> could be much better
>     understood by bringing them here to the ASF mailing lists for Apache
> Cassandra. I suggested
>     on Twitter that she bring her concerns to the Apache lists and told
> her which email address
>     to send it to. Some of the same people that eventually came onto the
> thread were people
>     who were communicating with her on Twitter – this was disappointing as
> they could have
>     done the same thing, and suggested Kelly come to the lists, Apache
> Cassandra PMC or not.
>     3. After 12 hours I checked back with Kelly and the Twitter dialogue
> had continued with several
>     ASF members and even some Board members getting involved. Again, I
> asked Kelly why talk
>     there, and why not just talk to the email list which is the canonical
> home for Apache Cassandra?
>     She told me she sent the mail the prior night.
>     4. So of course I checked (after having already guessed it was stuck
> in moderation) and yes it
>     was. What ensued was both frustration by my part and also email
> conversation that was heated
>     on both sides. I felt swiped on by a few emails where I had good
> intentions but I felt we were
>     wasting time debating whether we *should* moderate something through –
> which to me was
>     a clear answer (yes). Where I failed there was to recognize that the
> real answer was that the Apache
>     Cassandra PMC did not have enough moderators and the people I was
> mostly going back and forth
>     with were not the moderators of the mailing lists.
>     5. One positive thing that came from #4 was that at least there are
> more moderators now. I’m not sure
>     the reason for the lack of geographically diverse moderators, but it’s
> definitely something the PMC should
>     check from time to time. Not pointing fingers, simply identifying
> responsibility.
>
>     In my emails I used the word “shi*t” and “f’ing”. I didn’t direct
> either of these words at anyone in particular.
>     I used them as color in expressing my frustration. It happens from
> time to time. Sorry.
>
>     The Cassandra MVP comment was also not a diss on you as much as it was
> me saying – ideally – I would hope that
>     the Apache Cassandra MVP people promote the concept of their community
> leaders becoming “ASF members”,
>     and that Cassandra MVPs are great – but secondary – to the
> responsibilities of the PMC to move towards ensuring
>     its community understands the Apache Way.
>
>     Russell and I have never met in person so he does not really know me
> and nor I him. So he doesn’t know some of
>     these nuances that people would normally know having met each other in
> mediums besides email or electronically.
>     Many of you do not know me either. I will conclude with saying that I
> realize many of the people here for Apache
>     Cassandra have the best intentions for the project at heart. Please
> realize I do too. I care about the ASF and projects
>     and it leads me to send TL;DR emails and/or to use passion in my
> words. That can lead to frustration and to other
>     emotions.
>
>     Thanks for listening.
>
>     Cheers,
>     Chris
>
>
>
>     On 11/5/16, 3:16 PM, "Russell Bradberry" <rbradberry@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>         For the record, I never said anyone was attempting to make me
> “look bad”.  I simply stated that his method of argument was to discredit
> me.  Below I will break down his response, as I see it, and as others who
> have messaged me off list see it as well:
>
>         “… You see I’ve been around since 2004 and elected by the
> membership to the Board for the last three years based on merit …”
>
>         Here he is showing his superiority by way of tenure, or merit.
>
>         “You see I actually understand…”
>
>         The use of the term “actually” in this sense is to provide an
> attack against me in an effort to prove that I do not understand.
>
>         “…unfortunately you do not have a voice …”
>
>         Again, this is a blatant attempt to discredit me and provide proof
> that my word is of no worth because I am not on the PMC, nor a committer.
>
>         “You won’t have a vote in the next Apache Board election.”
>
>         Again
>
>         “You won’t have a vote in the next Members election.”
>
>         Again
>
>         “why haven’t you been elected to have a binding voice within the
> project? Please ask yourself that”
>
>         This is either an attempt to discredit me, in that I have not done
> enough to be elected, or an attempt to state the PMC hasn’t been doing
> their job in recognizing my efforts.
>
>         “please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP” compared to a
> member of the ASF which is home to the project””
>
>         This is not only insinuating that MVP is less than being a member
> of the ASF, and because I was given the MVP title, that somehow I am less
> than as well. (for the record, I have not asked for the MVP title, it was
> awarded, and I do not think that it should have any effect on the project
> from an Apache standpoint. Quite simply put, it is just another bullet
> point on a resume)
>
>         “I’ve been privy and voted on granting membership to within the
> foundation since 2011”
>
>         More attempts to discredit me by showing tenure.
>
>         Literally, the first portion of the response was a campaign to
> discredit me in order to demonstrate his merit.  The rest of the email goes
> to defend a point that I did not make.
>
>         Again, I will assert that the complaints the board has are valid.
> Datastax may have overstepped bounds and, as a result, put the project and
> ASF at risk.  I am not an authority on the subject and have not been privy
> to the private messages between the board, PMC, and Datastax.  What I will
> say, is that the tone, vitriol, ad-hominem responses and other
> unprofessional conduct has caused a rift in this community.  Most of this
> is coming directly from the board, specifically Chris.  Furthermore, as
> Aleksey has pointed out, this occurs in the private lists as well.  This is
> a form of toxic-leadership and is proven to not only be ineffective, but
> also be directly harmful.  These issues can, and should, be resolved
> amicably.
>
>         Professionalism and Respect, if aren’t, should be of the core
> tenets of any foundation, especially one of the caliber of Apache.
>
>
>
>         On 11/5/16, 9:38 AM, "Mark Struberg" <struberg@yahoo.de.INVALID>
> wrote:
>
>             Russel, I don't read that out of Chris' answer.
>             He just tried to show how community development might look
> like if done a bit more openly.
>
>             Do you mind going back to Chris' original reply and re-read it
> again?
>             I've not interpreted it as anyone trying to make you look bad.
> Au contraire!
>
>
>             txs and LieGrue,
>             strub
>
>
>
>
>
>             > On Saturday, 5 November 2016, 13:56, Russell Bradberry <
> rbradberry@gmail.com> wrote:
>             > > It seems that your tactic of argument is to discredit me
> at every level in order
>             > to show your superiority of sorts.  Let me set this
> straight, I am not
>             > attempting to say that I am an authority on ASF or that I
> know how things should
>             > be run.  I also was not attempting to vilify you in front of
> the board or vilify
>             > you in any way.  My complaint is that your rhetoric is
> unprofessional; and as a
>             > representative of the board the language you use is,
> plainly, casting a bad
>             > light on the ASF.
>             >
>             > I understand all of your concerns and was not attempting to
> minimize them in any
>             > way; they are legitimate concerns.  The way you are handling
> them is what I am
>             > concerned with and the tone you take is what I believe is
> helping divide the
>             > community.  Being the “villain” as you say is what is the
> problem.  If you cast
>             > yourself as the villain as a representative of the
> foundation you are then
>             > making the foundation look bad.
>             >
>             > Lastly, I may not have a vote, but I do have a voice.
> Everyone in the community
>             > does and can be heard, if not then it isn’t much of a
> community at all. I
>             > wouldn’t have you voted off the board nor do I want you to
> be voted off the
>             > board, I have not enough information to make a sound
> decision in that regard.
>             >
>             > All I ask if for some common professionalism and courtesy,
> nothing more.
>             >
>             >
>             >
>             >
>             > On 11/4/16, 4:46 PM, "Chris Mattmann" <mattmann@apache.org>
>             > wrote:
>             >
>             >     Hi Russ,
>             >
>             >     Sorry that you feel that way. I’m happy to be the
> villain when it comes to
>             > protecting
>             >     those same ideals you cite regarding Apache in your
> below thread. You see
>             > I’ve been
>             >     around since 2004 and elected by the membership to the
> Board for the last
>             > three years
>             >     based on merit, and contributions towards those ideals
> over a decade of the
>             > ASF.
>             >     I’ve been around longer than Apache Cassandra and this
> community and fully
>             > intend
>             >     for that to continue. My job is not to only care about
> Cassandra. It’s to
>             > ensure that the
>             >     ASF is a vendor neutral ground for ALL of its projects.
> You see I actually
>             > understand and
>             >     have read what’s required of me to serve the membership
> of the ASF and its
>             > communities.
>             >     I take this VERY seriously. Perhaps more than you know.
>             >
>             >     You see the other problem with your complaint about me –
> is that
>             > unfortunately you
>             >     do not have a voice to act on that complaint. You won’t
> have a vote in the
>             > next Apache
>             >     Board election. You won’t have a vote in the next
> Members election. And
>             > *that* is
>             >     the rub. I wouldn’t even care if you did or not and you
> voted against me on
>             > the ballot.
>             >     If the Apache Cassandra PMC or community cared enough
> about you or your
>             > contributions
>             >     to the project, you would have been made a committer, or
> PMC member, long
>             > ago, and
>             >     heck you would have even had a chance to become an ASF
> member where you
>             > could do
>             >     more than simply voice your displeasure with my actions,
> you would be able
>             > to vote with
>             >     your feet against my tyranny of trying to make this
> project’s management
>             > committee
>             >     understand their responsibilities for the ASF. I don’t
> even consider your
>             > requests to have
>             >     me vilified in front of the Board something that would
> disqualify you for
>             > membership in
>             >     the PMC or committee. If you have been making
> contributions, even discussion
>             > threads,
>             >     answering questions, etc., to the point of your prior
> emails including this
>             > one – why haven’t
>             >     you been elected to have a binding voice within the
> project? Please ask
>             > yourself that.
>             >
>             >     In fact, please ask yourself – what is a “Cassandra MVP”
> compared to a
>             > member of the
>             >     ASF which is home to the project? Also please go look at
> all the people I’ve
>             > been privy and
>             >     voted on granting membership to within the foundation
> since 2011, go look at
>             > some of the
>             >     functioning and healthy projects that don’t have a
> problem with vendor
>             > neutrality at the
>             >     ASF, and *then* come and talk to me about how my
> professional and character
>             > isn’t such
>             >     to stand on the board of the ASF. Again, I’ll wait.
>             >
>             >     If it’s a hostile request to ask that a potentially
> inflammatory Twitter
>             > discussion that I attempted
>             >     to bring about to the *source of the project’s
> discussion here at the ASF*
>             > and for a mail summarizing
>             >     that Twitter discussion to be moderated through within
> 12 hours, and
>             >     for the PMC of an Apache project to understand its
> commitments regarding
>             > having
>             >     geographically diverse moderators for their Apache
> lists; and if it’s a
>             > hostile request to
>             >     ask that all members of the community including those
> non committers and/or
>             > PMC
>             >     that take to Twitter to voice their concerns when they
> are not sure of even
>             > where the
>             >     canonical discussion for the project is have a voice
> here on the canonical
>             > lists for the project
>             >     then there is something fundamentally wrong with the
> community. I will
>             > assert again based
>             >     on my reading of the facts including archives, code,
> discussions here and
>             > outside of the ASF, abuse
>             >     of trademarks, vendor non-neutrality, tea leaves and the
> collective WHOLE of
>             > those things that my initial
>             >     request to bring the conversation on list -  that was
> met with the usual
>             > random drive by vitriol and my follow
>             >     up asking how in the bleeping world there were at least
> 3 emails questioning
>             > whether or not an email
>             >     should be moderated though - was warranted.
>             >
>             >     I state this as someone who has seen Apache projects
> come and go and will
>             >     continue to see that, even ones at the same level of
> interest as Cassandra
>             > (and much
>             >     much more too as well). If it’s hostile for a Board
> member to drive the
>             > discussions to
>             >     the mailing list instead of outside sources, then my
> apologies for my
>             > hostility. You will
>             >     continue to get that apology as I continue to do my job
> and what I signed up
>             > to do as an
>             >     ASF board member in terms of maintaining that vendor
> neutrality,
>             > irrespective of whether
>             >     or not people don’t like my directness, frankness, and
> discussion.
>             >
>             >     Chris
>             >
>             >     On 11/4/16, 1:09 PM, "Russell Bradberry"
>             > <rbradberry@gmail.com> wrote:
>             >
>             >            - ... we are arguing whether to f'ing moderate it
> through. Wow.
>             > Great
>             >            job.
>             >            - Do you think it's healthy to send emails trying
> to talk shit
>             > instead
>             >            of ...
>             >            - ... project? Or is Twitter the official list
> now? Go ahead,
>             > I'll wait.
>             >
>             >
>             >         Given your behavior and rhetoric on this thread, I
> believe you lack the
>             >         professionalism and character to be a board member
> of anything, let
>             > alone
>             >         representing the Apache Software Foundation and it's
> ideals.
>             > I've CC'd the
>             >         rest of the Apache board because I would like to
> formally complain about
>             >         your divisive rhetoric and overall unprofessional
> conduct within this
>             >         mailing list.
>             >
>             >         This list, and community, are made up of individuals
> and volunteers. I
>             >         believe, attacking them, even though you believe you
> may have been
>             >         attacked, detracts from the conversation and
> elevates tension in an
>             > already
>             >         tense community.  I encourage others to chime in if
> I am misreading
>             > here. I
>             >         personally feel that someone acting in a leadership
> capacity, such as a
>             >         board member, should be held to a higher standard of
> professionalism and
>             >         conduct when doing business; whether it is with
> their board member hat
>             > on
>             >         or not.  I would hate for it to be assumed that the
> entire Apache board
>             >         encourages, promotes, or even acts in this manner.
>             >
>             >         -Russ
>             >
>             >
>             >
>             >         On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 1:18 PM Mattmann, Chris A
> (3010) <
>             >         chris.a.mattmann@jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:
>             >
>             >         > Mark Thomas got it done ✅
>             >         >
>             >         > Sent from my iPhone
>             >         >
>             >         > > On Nov 4, 2016, at 10:13 AM, Jason Brown
>             > <jasedbrown@gmail.com> wrote:
>             >         > >
>             >         > > s/sis/is
>             >         > >
>             >         > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Jason Brown
>             > <jasedbrown@gmail.com>
>             >         > wrote:
>             >         > >>
>             >         > >> Chris,
>             >         > >>
>             >         > >> Yes, I would like to be added, and here sis the
> ticket I
>             > filed:
>             >         > >>
> https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-12858.
>             >         > >>
>             >         > >> Thanks,
>             >         > >>
>             >         > >> -Jason
>             >         > >>
>             >         > >> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Chris Mattmann
>             > <mattmann@apache.org>
>             >         > >> wrote:
>             >         > >>
>             >         > >>> I have apmail karma and can add moderators.
>             >         > >>>
>             >         > >>> Jason I can add you - please confirm you would
> like to
>             > be added. Did
>             >         > you
>             >         > >>> file the ticket - if so point me to it. If
you
>             > haven't yet, no worries
>             >         > I
>             >         > >>> can still add you. Let me know. Thanks.
>             >         > >>>
>             >         > >>>> On 2016-11-04 09:54 (-0700), Jason Brown
>             > <jasedbrown@gmail.com>
>             >         > wrote:
>             >         > >>>> Gary,
>             >         > >>>>
>             >         > >>>> I've just started looking into the moderator
>             > component due to this
>             >         > >>> thread;
>             >         > >>>> I admit I did not know about it before
(my
> fault).
>             > Yes, I would like
>             >         > to
>             >         > >>> be
>             >         > >>>> added. Apparently, I need to file an INFRA
> ticket
>             > (as per
>             >         > >>>>
>             >
> https://www.apache.org/dev/committers.html#mailing-list-moderators),
>             >         > >>> which
>             >         > >>>> I will do in the next few minutes.
>             >         > >>>>
>             >         > >>>> -Jason
>             >         > >>>>
>             >         > >>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:51 AM, Gary Dusbabek
>             > <gdusbabek@gmail.com>
>             >         > >>> wrote:
>             >         > >>>>
>             >         > >>>>> I'm beginning to wonder if I'm the
>             > only one with moderator privs. Any
>             >         > >>> other
>             >         > >>>>> committer/PMCs interested?
>             >         > >>>>>
>             >         > >>>>> Sorry, it's a chore to begin with
and
>             > I've been traveling this week.
>             >         > >>>>>
>             >         > >>>>> Gary.
>             >         > >>>>>
>             >         > >>>>> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:47 PM, Chris
> Mattmann
>             > <mattmann@apache.org>
>             >         > >>>>> wrote:
>             >         > >>>>>
>             >         > >>>>>> Hi Folks,
>             >         > >>>>>>
>             >         > >>>>>> Kelly Sommers sent a message to
>             > dev@cassandra and I'm trying to
>             >         > >>> figure
>             >         > >>>>>> out if it's in moderation.
>             >         > >>>>>>
>             >         > >>>>>> Can the moderators speak up?
>             >         > >>>>>>
>             >         > >>>>>> Cheers,
>             >         > >>>>>> Chris
>             >         > >>>>>>
>             >         > >>>>>>
>             >         > >>>>>
>             >         > >>>>
>             >         > >>>
>             >         > >>
>             >         > >>
>             >         >
>             >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Mime
  • Unnamed multipart/alternative (inline, None, 0 bytes)
View raw message